Fixed volume vs volume limit

[steadyshot]

I was (still am ) waiting this firmware with excitement! I have requested this feature and Wiim delivered!

 

[ratty]

To me, it seems like a bug to have the limiter enabled when using fixed volume output. It is just confusing and not what people will want in the vast majority of cases where fixed volume is used.

I'm inclined to agree. IIRC a while ago someone asked for a 'bit perfect' switch which would disable volume and EQ in one go. The case for such an option is stronger now. As it stands I need to check that (a) vol is fixed, (b) limiter is 100% and (c) EQ is off to ensure bit-perfect. (Or run bit tests through my ADI-2.)

 

[Brantome]

I'm inclined to agree. IIRC a while ago someone asked for a 'bit perfect' switch which would disable volume and EQ in one go. The case for such an option is stronger now. As it stands I need to check that (a) vol is fixed, (b) limiter is 100% and (c) EQ is off to ensure bit-perfect. (Or run bit tests through my ADI-2.)

But surely you’d only do that once? Why would you need to constantly recheck it?

 

[onlyoneme]

But surely you’d only do that once? Why would you need to constantly recheck it?

Even I can handle it although switching these settings all the time on all my WiiMs

 

[ratty]

But surely you’d only do that once? Why would you need to constantly recheck it?

Not constantly, but it's a convenience thing to be able to simply toggle off all DSP. The case was borderline with two variables (vol, EQ) but IMO is stronger now the limiter has been introduced (which is evidently mis-labelled since it's a scaler not a limiter).

 

[dssme]

If volume set on fixed, will volume limit has no effect?

so I've been skimming this blurb and just had to mention something not addressed here

if you want a lower output, without affecting the "bit perfect-ness" of the signal, you can lower the output level to 1 V or less is you find these loudness wars music to overdrive your equipment

However, keep in mind that this affects only the analogue output, and not the coax or s/pdif outputs

There's also ways to have your software adjust levels, but again, not with a "bit perfect" output

I was using plexamp and seen they offer such a setting, to "normalize" levels

 

[adias]

But surely you’d only do that once? Why would you need to constantly recheck it?

Maybe more than once… firmware bugs can change settings as witnessed by the latest firmware update changing the output settings of some.

Some of us warned of the featuritis plague.

 

[Mr Ee]

so I've been skimming this blurb and just had to mention something not addressed here

if you want a lower output, without affecting the "bit perfect-ness" of the signal, you can lower the output level to 1 V or less is you find these loudness wars music to overdrive your equipment

However, keep in mind that this affects only the analogue output, and not the coax or s/pdif outputs

There's also ways to have your software adjust levels, but again, not with a "bit perfect" output

I was using plexamp and seen they offer such a setting, to "normalize" levels

Well, that's not how it works...

Lowering the analog output voltage has nothing at all to do with maintaining a bit perfect signal into the wiim's dac.
You'd still need to do all the other checks mentioned above (including mono off and probably others that have been forgotton) to get no digital manipulation of the signal.

I'm assuming that the 'single button' to achieve this will still be in the mqa menu options, and it would disable /reset anything at all that adjusts the signal.

 

[dssme]

Well, that's not how it works...

Lowering the analog output voltage has nothing at all to do with maintaining a bit perfect signal into the wiim's dac.
You'd still need to do all the other checks mentioned above (including mono off and probably others that have been forgotton) to get no digital manipulation of the signal.

I'm assuming that the 'single button' to achieve this will still be in the mqa menu options, and it would disable /reset anything at all that adjusts the signal.

I realize lowering the output votage has nothing to do with "bit perfect-ness" but if the songs we play are overloading the preamp/amplifier chain, the reason people are asking about lowering the level in the first place, using the analogue output with a lower output can simulate the effect inquired about here, without affecting the "bit perfect-ness" of the digital chain

That's my point here

 

[Mr Ee]

I realize lowering the output votage has nothing to do with "bit perfect-ness" but if the songs we play are overloading the preamp/amplifier chain, the reason people are asking about lowering the level in the first place, using the analogue output with a lower output can simulate the effect inquired about here, without affecting the "bit perfect-ness" of the digital chain

That's my point here

Fair enough, but I read "if you want a lower output, without affecting the "bit perfect-ness" of the signal..."
Plus, the signal may already be clipped by that time.

 

[dssme]

Fair enough, but I read "if you want a lower output, without affecting the "bit perfect-ness" of the signal..."
Plus, the signal may already be clipped by that time.

exactly

put the device in fixed volume, set the output voltage lower, and hook up to the analogue output

either this does what you need, or you use the digital volume and see what you think is better

Personally, I find many if not nearly all, older masterings to be superior
But inside my car, louder levels seem to "fit" better
It all depends on many factors
But digital overload is a huge problem in digital music

 

[Mr Ee]

Out of interest, for those with ios app, peq etc. etc., what do the notes in the mqa menus say now?
The section starting with the phrase "To make MQA enabled DAC work..." [sic] and then it lists the things it'll set automatically.

 

[onlyoneme]

using the analogue output with a lower output can simulate the effect inquired about here, without affecting the "bit perfect-ness" of the digital chain

Especially when lowering the analog output level is performed internally by lowering the signal in digital domain.

 

[Mr Ee]

Especially when lowering the analog output level is performed internally by lowering the signal in digital domain.

Ah....

 

[Bismarck]

@onlyoneme
Sorry, but I still don’t get it…
Can you please give a real life example of the usefulness of this volume limiter?
In other words, why has it been introduced?

 

[Wiimer]

@onlyoneme
Sorry, but I still don’t get it…
Can you please give a real life example of the usefulness of this volume limiter?
In other words, why has it been introduced?

I'm not an Onlyoneme.

Many amplifiers and AVRs have this feature to prevent unexpected loud volumes. On WiiM, this function is mainly for users who do not use fixed volumes.

 

[Wiimer]

If you have big fingers, you may find it difficult to control the volume in detail on the small screen of your smartphone. Also, on the Now Playing screen, you may touch the volume gauge when you tap the button in the track list.

 

[Mr Ee]

Once again, beaten to it!
Yes, too easy in an app to instantly go to max volume.

 

[Yanto]

It's only for iOS atm.

Yes it’s there in my iPhone app

 

[Mr Ee]

Especially when lowering the analog output level is performed internally by lowering the signal in digital domain.

And to add a bit more than my simple "ah" earlier...

As expected, changing the line out level makes no difference to the volume of a digital output, regardless of fixed / variable volume.
So if the line out volume is attenuated digitally then that might also help explain why only one output can be active at a time?