Phono Ouput still Low WITH +36db Preamp on Line Input

[jbnati]

Setup:
Vintage Yamaha YP-D6 TT rca line out >

Manayo PM5 preamp (gain set to max +36db, Volume set to Max) >

rca to WiiM Amp Line Input


Even with the gain and volume maxed out, and the volume adjustment for Line Inout on WiiM set at 100% it’s still probably only about 40-50% of the max volume as playing music from USB drive library of digital files or HDMI input.

I don’t need it to be massively loud, but it seems excessively low WITH a preamp.

Link to preamp:
MANAYO Phono Preamp, Professional Mini Preamp for Turntable/Vinyl Record Player. Stereo Phonograph preamplifier Designed with RCA Input/Output, Headphone Jack, Adjustable Volume and gain https://a.co/d/bhvkRtE

 

[cc_rider]

What type of phono cartridge are you using (MM, MC or MI)?

 

[jbnati]

What type of phono cartridge are you using (MM, MC or MI)?

MM,

Micro-Acoustics 282-e phono cartridge

Micro-Acoustics 282-e phono cartridge

Check out the deal on Micro-Acoustics 282-e phono cartridge at LP Gear

www.lpgear.com

 

[cc_rider]

So, at the low end for a typical MM cartridge, then. According to this article, you'll need a preamp gain of about 45dB for that cartridge.

https://www.audioadvice.com/sutherland-setup-guide

 

[jbnati]

Ok, I’ll just live with it for now. I’ve dumped too much money into everything. Thanks for the help.

 

[cc_rider]

Or you could submit a request to @WiiM Team to add variable input sensitivity to the analog inputs (or maybe it's already available, haven't used the analog inputs). Their competitor Sonos provides this feature.

 

[jbnati]

Or you could submit a request to @WiiM Team to add variable input sensitivity to the analog inputs (or maybe it's already available, haven't used the analog inputs). Their competitor Sonos provides this feature.

This is more what I was hoping for. I’m not the only one dealing with this, although most others haven’t even added a preamp at all.

I just wonder if too much internal gain would add noise or not.

 

[CrystalGipsy]

There is no sensitivity setting for the wiim for input only outputting via RCA. Stuff like this should really be sorted at source eg. Phono preamp your using one that’s not overly suited to your cartridge.

 

[Petevid]

Experienced the same low output issue on the line input using Rega P2 turntable fitted with an Audio technica AT95 cartridge via a Pro-ject phono pre-amp. Just doesn’t go very loud.

Never an issue with at least 6 other amps I’ve employed including Denon, Yamaha, Quad, Rega, Nad.

 

[jbnati]

I bought an iFi Zen phono preamp with 4 gain settings, so I started running like +64db and it sounds amazing and is still dead quiet on the noise floor. That was my concern with a big gain boost, but it’s great.

 

[Petevid]

My problem is the volume isn’t very loud coming out of my speakers even at max volume.

 

[harkpabst]

My problem is the volume isn’t very loud coming out of my speakers even at max volume.

And that's exactly what a phono pre with higher gain would solve, as explained by @jbnati.

As it turns out, the WiiM Amp's line-in is rather insensitive. It needs quite a bit of input voltage for the digitized signal to come close to 0 dB FullScale. I can only presume this is to ensure it is not overdriven by the line outputs of some modern gear. This might not be a good match to many phono pre-amps.

Sensitivity on the analog side is determined by hardware. WiiM could supply us with a separate gain setting for line-in (or for each input, for that matter). But it would have to be digital gain then, so effectively reducing digital resolution (or increasing digital noise, however you want to call it). If the quality of the in-build ADC is decent, this shouldn't even be much of a problem ...

 

[Petevid]

So it’s a characteristic of the Wiim amp not the phono stage?

After all it’s a very common phono stage, sold in its thousands all over the world with a satisfactory output voltage that happily works with amps from many if not all other manufacturers.

I was hoping the answer would be Wiim could increase the sensitivity of the line input, not try and find a phono amp with a higher output.

 

[harkpabst]

So it’s a characteristic of the Wiim amp not the phono stage?

After all it’s a very common phono stage, sold in its thousands all over the world with a satisfactory output voltage that happily works with amps from many if not all other manufacturer's.

I was hoping the answer would be Wiim could increase the sensitivity of the line input, not try and find a phono amp with a higher output.

Not knowing exactly, which one of the many different Pro-ject phono stages you have, the answer is still: As of now the input sensitivity of the Amp's line-in is not adjustable.

If you could live with the SPL at say 90-100% volume setting on the WiiM, that would really be no issue. But if it is not loud enough, then it just isn't.

Edit:
You could file a feature request in the appropriate sub-forum right here:

Feature request for WiiM Amp & Amp Pro

Discuss potential improvements for the WiiM Amp and Amp Pro

forum.wiimhome.com

 

[Petevid]

Thanks, I would say it’s nearer to 60 to 70%. According to the spec the output is 500mV but as I say this has been plenty high enough with other amps I’ve used.

 

[harkpabst]

Thanks, I would say it’s nearer to 60 to 70%. According to the spec the output is 500mV but as I say this has been plenty high enough with other amps I’ve used.

Unfortunately there is not one single binding standard for RCA input/output levels. For many years the de facto standard has been 775 mV (but many manufacturers did not necessarily stick to it).

With the advent of CD players the usual analog output level for a full scale digital signal was around 2 Volts. Any preamp had to get along with that, so many amps of that time did have different input sensitivities for CD and seemingly "equal" inputs like Tuner.

Nowadays some devices will output up to 4 Volts even through unbalanced RCA. I don't know if WiiM have an official spec for the input sensitivity of the line input on the WiiM Amp. I can't remember seeing it.

 

[jbnati]

So it’s a characteristic of the Wiim amp not the phono stage?

After all it’s a very common phono stage, sold in its thousands all over the world with a satisfactory output voltage that happily works with amps from many if not all other manufacturer's.

I was hoping the answer would be Wiim could increase the sensitivity of the line input, not try and find a phono amp with a higher output.

Like I said, I’m running the highest or second highest gain on the iFi and it sounds amazing. It’s as loud in gain now as my digital files. It’s super clear, no noise, no static. I’m sure it sounds weird to be running ultra high gain meant for very low MC cartridges on a MM cartridge, but it’s working beautifully.

 

[Petevid]

Like I said, I’m running the highest or second highest gain on the iFi and it sounds amazing. It’s as loud in gain now as my digital files. It’s super clear, no noise, no static. I’m sure it sounds weird to be running ultra high gain meant for very low MC cartridges on a MM cartridge, but it’s working beautifully.

That shouldn’t be the case though, that you need to run ultra high gain and that the amp is such a mismatch with the majority of phono preamps in the market .

Also I’m not disputing the quality of what is output.

 

[es6rd6z]

Experienced the same low output issue on the line input using Rega P2 turntable fitted with an Audio technica AT95 cartridge via a Pro-ject phono pre-amp. Just doesn’t go very loud.

Never an issue with at least 6 other amps I’ve employed including Denon, Yamaha, Quad, Rega, Nad.

I have a feeling one of the latest firmware updates introduced a bug where the Line-in and Optical inputs are often much lower in volume than they should be. My amp was working perfectly with WiFi, Bluetooth, Line-in and Optical being more or less equally loud, up until a couple of weeks ago where suddenly even my cd player via Optical is so quiet that I need to turn the volume up to 90+% to have a normal listening level. But then today, suddenly they all play at the correct volume again. The only thing that was different today is that I woke the amp up from standby by playing a cd, whereas normally my computer wakes it up via either Airplay or Bluetooth and I switch to a cd or record later on.

 

[harkpabst]

That shouldn’t be the case though, that you need to run ultra high gain and that the amp is such a mismatch with the majority of phono preamps in the market .

The WiiM Amp's line-in is not intended specifically for use with external phono pre-amps. If you were to connect a regular CD player, an input sensitivity of ~2 Volts is really exactly what you need.

However, it's important to understand that 500 mV is not the max. output of the "majority of phono pre-amps". The output of phono cartridges is usually rated at a velocity of 5 cm/s at 1 kHz. The maximum peak velocity found in actual records at around 1 kHz could exceed 30 cm/s (see this paper originally published by Shure in the 1970s) with 10 cm/s being a good average. You do not want to overdrive a digitized input, as that would lead to horrible distortion.

And here comes @es6rd6z:

I have a feeling one of the latest firmware updates introduced a bug where the Line-in and Optical inputs are often much lower in volume than they should be. My amp was working perfectly with WiFi, Bluetooth, Line-in and Optical being more or less equally loud, up until a couple of weeks ago where suddenly even my cd player via Optical is so quiet that I need to turn the volume up to 90+% to have a normal listening level.

I must admitt that the newly introduced feature of per-source volume control does not work as intuitively as I suspected it to do. Without performing any measurements yet, I don't get along with it that well so far. You might be onto something here ...