RoomFit 10 PEQ + EQ 10 PEQ ?

[Gram1000]

Hi all,

New WIIM Amp Ultra owner reporting to forum.

Gear connected to Amp Ultra:
Mains: Polk R200
Sub: JL Audio D110

Run RoomFit today with UMIK-1:
Range: 20-300Hz
Min/Max gain: 12db
Max Q; 10
Non-boost mode: on
Smoothing: 1/12 Oct
Sub crossover: 80Hz

Prior to RoomFit MMM was eyeballing sweeps with REW and set the mains delay to 6ms based on where the crossover dip at 80Hz was the lowest.
Also based on these sweep the phase set at 180° was way better.
To note my REW skills/knowledge is almost non-existent at the moment, so there's still a dip at 80Hz and definitely a lot of room for improvement.

Then to my question:
As seen in the attached RoomFit pics there's a huge peaks in my room at 30Hz and 70Hz and to fix these all the 10 PEQ were used between 20-115Hz leaving a lot of ripples between 115-300 that were not able to be corrected.

In the EQ/PEQ I've used 5 out of 10 PEQ to fill with Erin's spinorama EQ data above 300Hz for Polk R200.

In short term to be able to get 115-300Hz range better corrected should I just run REW sweep on top of current RoomFit and EQ/PEQ and get recommended 5 PEQs for that 115-300Hz range to be filled in Amp Ultra EQ/PEQ ?

PS: SQ for 2ch music is more important to me than movie

 

[dominikz]

Hi all,

New WIIM Amp Ultra owner reporting to forum.

Welcome!
First let me say that honestly, it looks to me you did a very good job already! Nice work!

Run RoomFit today with UMIK-1:
Range: 20-300Hz
Min/Max gain: 12db
Max Q; 10
Non-boost mode: on
Smoothing: 1/12 Oct
Sub crossover: 80Hz

These are good choices!
My only advice would be to try to use "Individual Channel" RoomFit variant, instead of the "Stereo" variant which you used, and to try the "variable" smoothing option instead of 1/12 - see if either of that improves anything.

Prior to RoomFit MMM was eyeballing sweeps with REW and set the mains delay to 6ms based on where the crossover dip at 80Hz was the lowest.
Also based on these sweep the phase set at 180° was way better.
To note my REW skills/knowledge is almost non-existent at the moment, so there's still a dip at 80Hz and definitely a lot of room for improvement.

My usual advice for tuning the sub using the eyeball method is to initially set phase/polarity to 0° and all delays to 0ms. Then first check whether phase/polarity at 0° or 180° gives more energy around the crossover. After you make the selection, iterate through several delay values to see which one gives the most energy around the crossover.
I've described the process (and some alternatives) in this post in a bit more detail. Note that this was for a SVS sub with on-board DSP which adds ~6ms delay to start - your sub may or might not have this.

Hopefully this process will be simplified in the future when we get the BassFit feature.

Then to my question:
As seen in the attached RoomFit pics there's a huge peaks in my room at 30Hz and 70Hz and to fix these all the 10 PEQ were used between 20-115Hz leaving a lot of ripples between 115-300 that were not able to be corrected.

In short term to be able to get 115-300Hz range better corrected should I just run REW sweep on top of current RoomFit and EQ/PEQ and get recommended 5 PEQs for that 115-300Hz range to be filled in Amp Ultra EQ/PEQ ?

PS: SQ for 2ch music is more important to me than movie

There's IMO no reason to try and correct the minor irregularities in the 115-300Hz range (unless you hear some obvious issues there).
There will always be some left-over irregularities in the response, but your response actually looks pretty good to me as is!

In the EQ/PEQ I've used 5 out of 10 PEQ to fill with Erin's spinorama EQ data above 300Hz for Polk R200.

That is a good approach! I suppose you applied only the PEQ bands above 300Hz (i.e. above your RoomFit cut-off frequency)?

 

[Gram1000]

Thanks for the advice.

My only advice would be to try to use "Individual Channel" RoomFit variant, instead of the "Stereo" variant which you used, and to try the "variable" smoothing option instead of 1/12 - see if either of that improves anything.

I'll check and compare the results next time fiddling with RoomFit.

My usual advice for tuning the sub using the eyeball method is to initially set phase/polarity to 0° and all delays to 0ms. Then first check whether phase/polarity at 0° or 180° gives more energy around the crossover. After you make the selection, iterate through several delay values to see which one gives the most energy around the crossover.

Yes, that's what I did. With 0° polarity the dip at 80Hz went through the floor (sweeps at REW, no smoothing). At 180° the 80Hz dip appeared in the scale.
I was iterating the delay from 0ms to 8ms (1ms steps) and the dip at 80Hz was lowest with 6ms mains delay set in Amp Ultra.

And hope the upcoming BassFit feature will simplify and improve setting the delay between sub and mains.

Now its time to listen how the current sub integration sounds

 

[MCG555]

Welcome!
To be honest, this looks already excellent.
„Huge peaks“ is relative, I had to correct bigger ones…
How does it sound?
Besides the „big corrections“ I am always amazed how little difference there is in actual hearing it if „smaller corrections“ are applied…

 

[dominikz]

Thanks for the advice.


I'll check and compare the results next time fiddling with RoomFit.


Yes, that's what I did. With 0° polarity the dip at 80Hz went through the floor (sweeps at REW, no smoothing). At 180° the 80Hz dip appeared in the scale.
I was iterating the delay from 0ms to 8ms (1ms steps) and the dip at 80Hz was lowest with 6ms mains delay set in Amp Ultra.

And hope the upcoming BassFit feature will simplify and improve setting the delay between sub and mains.

Now its time to listen how the current sub integration sounds

Sounds like a plan! Enjoy!

 

[Valentino]

You’ve done some excellent work there, @Gram1000.

 

[satheesht]

Gear connected to Amp Ultra:
Mains: Polk R200

Hi, I also have a polk R200+Amp Ultra (different sub) and didn't come across anyone posting with the same setup so far in the forum. So yay , Welcome !

 

[BMeek]

[...]
These are good choices!
My only advice would be to try to use "Individual Channel" RoomFit variant, instead of the "Stereo" variant which you used, and to try the "variable" smoothing option instead of 1/12 - see if either of that improves anything.

I'll need to try the 'individual channel' method as well... I haven't bothered as my space is fairly symetrical relative to the speaker placement, but I imagine it's more accurate.

On the RoomFit prep side, wouldn't the OP wish to reduce his subwoofer's gain, just a smidge, to avoid some of those 10db+ adjustments?

 

[Gram1000]

I suppose you applied only the PEQ bands above 300Hz (i.e. above your RoomFit cut-off frequency)?

Yes, only added those values above 300Hz.

How does it sound?

It sounds very good. Not sure yet on the tonality of the R200 standmounters...
In general very happy how RoomFit was able to get the sub integrated, very snappy bass without any boominess.

I also have a polk R200+Amp Ultra (different sub)

How do you like your R200 ?
Mine are only 2 weeks old but certain type of music with distorted electric guitars really sounds like R200s are distorting the sound further. Don't know if its a room that contributes or the R200s are a bit harsh in mids/high.

wouldn't the OP wish to reduce his subwoofer's gain, just a smidge, to avoid some of those 10db+ adjustments?

Up to the certain point can reduce the sub gain, but dips are not fixed very effectively as my below initial (failed) integration attempt shows. Obviously this did not sound good at all.


Then further testing;
Reduced sub level by 2db in Wiim and did further testing with separate L/R calibration and variable smoothing.

While the individual L/R corrections looks okay the summarized correction boosted bass -> will try next time to reduce the sub level even further.

Also tried with Harman curve and saved it for my spouse as she likes to listen "boom boom" music.


Eventually landed back to B&K with stereo MMM calibration.



Thanks to all for tips & hints.
Cheers until next time.

 

[dominikz]

On the RoomFit prep side, wouldn't the OP wish to reduce his subwoofer's gain, just a smidge, to avoid some of those 10db+ adjustments?

Up to the certain point can reduce the sub gain, but dips are not fixed very effectively as my below initial (failed) integration attempt shows.

IMHO @Gram1000 did well to keep subwoofer gain where it is, as that avoids the dip just below 50Hz after correction.

Perhaps this dip could also be reduced by alternative sub placement, but there's usually physical and aesthetic constraints on where the sub can go - so I see this as a reasonable compromise.

While the individual L/R corrections looks okay the summarized correction boosted bass -> will try next time to reduce the sub level even further.

Note that it is normal to get a +3dB bass boost when measuring both channels together vs each of them individually.
Multiple sources at low frequencies act as coherent sound sources so two bass sources sum to +6dB compared to a single source. At higher frequencies they start to act as incoherent sources so they sum to +3dB compared to a single source.
The net result is that you get +3dB more bass when measuring two speakers together (i.e. Stereo RoomFit) vs individual channels (i.e Individual Channel RoomFit).

Have a look at this post for some examples.

Note that this is not specific to WiiM or RoomFit - it is just physics of wave summation, so the same thing happens in any system.

Reduced sub level by 2db in Wiim and did further testing with separate L/R calibration and variable smoothing.

While the individual L/R corrections looks okay the summarized correction boosted bass -> will try next time to reduce the sub level even further.

Also tried with Harman curve and saved it for my spouse as she likes to listen "boom boom" music.

Eventually landed back to B&K with stereo MMM calibration.

That looks very good indeed!

Note that instead of having two calibrations (B&K vs Harman) you could keep only B&K and then boost bass by the required amount with a PEQ low-shelf filter - which you can even associate with a preset (and even remote control button) for easy access. Instructions in this post.

 

[MCG555]

Your curve looks almost perfect! For sure better than mine!

 

[satheesht]

How do you like your R200 ?
Mine are only 2 weeks old but certain type of music with distorted electric guitars really sounds like R200s are distorting the sound further. Don't know if its a room that contributes or the R200s are a bit harsh in mids/high.

My observation is R200 is very directional and tweeters can feel loud with some tracks which i adjusted a bit with toe-in and height.

If you don't mind, could you share one or two tracks and the timings where you are observing the distortion? The tracks I listen to with guitar are simpler, older country or blues tracks (like J.J. Cale's 'Someday'). They sound alright to me—'alright' as in how the speaker plays them; as music, I rate them nothing less than awesome . But they are probably not the kinds of tracks that will surface speaker distortion.

One aspect both our measurements seem to show is the spike around 1khz which is also discussed in Erins review. It shows in both of our graphs I think is addressed by Spinorama EQ which WiiM room correction won't apply yet (as i learned on another thread from @harkpabst)

I do have bigger room interference issues though, compared to the RC measurements you shared, mine is all over the place. (Last RC screenshots below, it's a sweep measurement done using imm6).






Nevertheless if you are ok share the track details and timing, i can check - iam also now curious.