Seeking Validation: Liberating from Sonos with a Future-Proof Wiim Expansion Architecture

[chdem]

Dear Wiim community,

This is my first post, as I'm currently exploring ways to evolve my home audio system with a focus on reducing my reliance on the Sonos (Sonos has been degrading its user experience for years, and this time it's just too much!) while continuing to use my existing Sonos equipment.

I also want to avoid regressions in my daily use by making sure that my system can handle playlists containing songs from both Deezer and YouTube Music. Moving forward, I plan to expand my speaker setup at home and implement multiroom audio without investing in more Sonos hardware.

Given these needs, I've considered integrating Wiim devices into my system. Here’s the plan I’ve devised :

1. Control Apps: I'll primarily use the Wiim Home App for controlling the new Wiim devices, significantly reducing my interaction with the Sonos app (only for maintaining equalization and turn on/off some of my zones).
2. Wiim Device Configuration:
   • Wiim Pro: This will serve as the central hub, managing connections and audio streaming to other wiim devices in the system.
   • Wiim Pro Plus: It will connect to my Sonos Port via RCA, serving as the audio input source. This setup is key because the Wiim Pro Plus offers superior audio characteristics, which are crucial for maintaining high fidelity in my existing HiFi system.
   • Wiim Minis: These will be connected to active speakers in various locations around my home, allowing for flexible and expandable multiroom audio configurations.
3. Sonos Integration: The Wiim Pro Plus will connect via RCA to the Sonos Port. The Sonos Port then connects to a DAC (Digital-to-Analog Converter) by Marantz, which in turn connects to an amplifier and passive speakers. Additionally, the Sonos Port wirelessly connects to multiple Sonos speakers (Play:1 and Symphonisk) throughout your home. Note that my current system consists of this Sonos port + DAC + amplifier/passive speakers + Sonos speakers.
4. Future Expansion: This configuration is designed to be flexible, allowing me to add more Wiim-connected active speakers in the future, further reducing my dependency on Sonos hardware for new areas.

I believe Wiim might be the solution to meet my audio system needs, but I would like to validate this architecture with the community before proceeding with the purchase.
I’m particularly interested in any feedback regarding the integration of Wiim with Sonos, potential issues, or better alternatives for achieving a seamless and high-quality audio experience.

Your insights would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks ;-)

 

[d6jg]

I think that should work but I'd question whether the WiiM Pro Plus is necessary given that you intend to send RCA to the Sonos Port then convert it to digital to send to the DAC. Whatever ADC chip is in the Sonos Port is going to be the weak spot.

Why not connect the WiiM Pro (hub) via digital direct to the Marantz DAC

You may get some latency issues again because of the Sonos Port.

I'm sure I will get shouted down but you could also use LMS and it's UPnPBridge to bring the Sonos devices into the equation without the Sonos Port.

 

[Brantome]

First thoughts off the top of my head:

a) WiiM doesn’t have native support for YouTube Music, so you’d need to use a Bluetooth or Chromecast to play that. However, if using the latter, you couldn’t then redistribute that to a WiiM/Linkplay group as the minis you show don’t support Chromecast
b) Perhaps moot as WiiM doesn’t natively support YouTube Music as said, but it also doesn’t support mixed playlists with tracks from different services
c) As shown, the Pro is rather redundant as you could have a WiiM group with the Pro Plus as the main/driving device, distributing the audio to the Minis, as well as feeding its RCA output.
d) You could however deploy a Pro (or indeed another Mini) to feed the Marantz DAC without the latter having to go thru the Sonos port route - also, it looks like you’re feeding an analog RCA signal into that DAC where I’d expect it to be digital
e) I wouldn’t necessarily expect playback on the WiiM group to be in sync with the Sonos group

 

[Jls]

This is the thread I’ve been waiting for to ask about multi room synch when mixing components.

Does the processing delay of DACs and digital eq screw up synch, the way TVs screw up lip synch when not compensated?

I see someone already brought up this point.

 

[Brantome]

I'm sure I will get shouted down but you could also use LMS and it's UPnPBridge to bring the Sonos devices into the equation without the Sonos Port.

Or if all the Sonos devices support AirPlay 2 (I don’t know enough about Sonos to say one way or the other) you could have all your endpoints as AirPlay 2 players driven by a Pro or Pro Plus, although I’m not sure how well synchronised playback would be.

 

[chdem]

I think that should work but I'd question whether the WiiM Pro Plus is necessary given that you intend to send RCA to the Sonos Port then convert it to digital to send to the DAC. Whatever ADC chip is in the Sonos Port is going to be the weak spot.

Why not connect the WiiM Pro (hub) via digital direct to the Marantz DAC

You may get some latency issues again because of the Sonos Port.

I'm sure I will get shouted down but you could also use LMS and it's UPnPBridge to bring the Sonos devices into the equation without the Sonos Port.

Thank you for your answer.

The problem is that I want to use my HiFi system (with my DAC) and my Sonos devices.
If I've understood correctly, there is no Wiim device (for the moment) that can produce different types of output at the same time. Otherwise, I could use a single Wiim pro plus connected to my DAC throw the RCA and capable of sending airplay to my sonos devices at the same time.

So the only solution is to link a wiim device with at least a Sonos device to be able to send the Wiim Home app audio stream to all my Sonos speakers and the only device I have that accepts input other than that from the Sonos application is my Sonos Port.

 

[chdem]

Or if all the Sonos devices support AirPlay 2 (I don’t know enough about Sonos to say one way or the other) you could have all your endpoints as AirPlay 2 players driven by a Pro or Pro Plus, although I’m not sure how well synchronised playback would be.

Thank you for your answer.
I've checked this, and unfortunately, the Play:1 does not seem to be "AirPlay" compatible...

Stream AirPlay audio to Sonos

Use AirPlay on your iPhone, iPad, or Mac to stream your favorite music, movies, podcasts and other audio directly to your Sonos products.

support.sonos.com

 

[Brantome]

As I allude to above, if you put all the WiiM devices in a WiiM/Linkplay group in the WiiM Home app, each device can still use its output - the minis could feed their active speakers, the Pro Plus could feed the Sonos port, and the Pro’s digital output could feed the Marantz DAC.

Youtube Music playback though might be an issue - I’d need to check if you could use Bluetooth from its app to the main WiiM device in the WiiM group and then redistribute that to the other devices in that group. There might be a slight reduction in quality given YouTube Music is already a lossy format then being sent over another lossy codec like BT.

 

[chdem]

First thoughts off the top of my head:

Thank you for your answer.

a) WiiM doesn’t have native support for YouTube Music, so you’d need to use a Bluetooth or Chromecast to play that. However, if using the latter, you couldn’t then redistribute that to a WiiM/Linkplay group as the minis you show don’t support Chromecast

b) Perhaps moot as WiiM doesn’t natively support YouTube Music as said, but it also doesn’t support mixed playlists with tracks from different services

That's a really big step backwards for me. I find it hard to do without this feature :-(

c) As shown, the Pro is rather redundant as you could have a WiiM group with the Pro Plus as the main/driving device, distributing the audio to the Minis, as well as feeding its RCA output.

Oh, ok, I tkae good note of this...

d) You could however deploy a Pro (or indeed another Mini) to feed the Marantz DAC without the latter having to go thru the Sonos port route - also, it looks like you’re feeding an analog RCA signal into that DAC where I’d expect it to be digital

This is a limitation of the Sonos Port which only allows me to produce DAC output (yes, I know, it's a shame, especially as the previous version, the Sonos Connect offered toslink). Connecting a Pro on my DAC could be an option indeed if i'm able to distribute the audio to the minis and to the port at the same time

e) I wouldn’t necessarily expect playback on the WiiM group to be in sync with the Sonos group

Oh, ok. What could be the bootleneck here?

 

[chdem]

As I allude to above, if you put all the WiiM devices in a WiiM/Linkplay group in the WiiM Home app, each device can still use its output - the minis could feed their active speakers, the Pro Plus could feed the Sonos port, and the Pro’s digital output could feed the Marantz DAC.

Youtube Music playback though might be an issue - I’d need to check if you could use Bluetooth from its app to the main WiiM device in the WiiM group and then redistribute that to the other devices in that group. There might be a slight reduction in quality given YouTube Music is already a lossy format then being sent over another lossy codec like BT.

Sorry, cross answers.

For YT Music and the Bluetooth, doesn't seems to be ok according to your post https://forum.wiimhome.com/threads/youtube-music-please.288/post-19487

 

[ratty]

Another option: once WiiM release DLNA cast this should work to the Sonos units. They appear as renderers in most DLNA control points. If Sonos units are grouped then only the group coordinator needs to be targeted.

This is a limitation of the Sonos Port which only allows me to produce DAC output (yes, I know, it's a shame, especially as the previous version, the Sonos Connect offered toslink).

A simple coax/Toslink S/PDIF converter would deliver optical.

 

[chdem]

Assuming that my Marantz DAC accepts optical input (and that I agree to use only one audio source by redoing all my playlists), we could imagine that.
Does that sound right to you?

 

[Brantome]

As I allude to above, if you put all the WiiM devices in a WiiM/Linkplay group in the WiiM Home app, each device can still use its output - the minis could feed their active speakers, the Pro Plus could feed the Sonos port, and the Pro’s digital output could feed the Marantz DAC.

Youtube Music playback though might be an issue - I’d need to check if you could use Bluetooth from its app to the main WiiM device in the WiiM group and then redistribute that to the other devices in that group. There might be a slight reduction in quality given YouTube Music is already a lossy format then being sent over another lossy codec like BT.

I’ve just set up a Linkplay group with my WiiM Pro Plus, Pro, Mini and WiiM Amp, with the first three feeding into my Linn amp over RCA, Coax and optical respectively (yes, I have too many WiiM devices in the one location, but that’s a separate issue ).

Using my iPad’s YouTube Music app, I was able to connect first via Bluetooth to the Pro Plus and have the same audio output at the same time on all devices (although I had to cycle thru the first three in turn on my Linn amp). I also found it worked well when I used AirPlay to cast from my iPad to the Pro Plus which then redistributed the audio as well as feeding its RCA output.

So the suggestion solution I made above of having all the WiiM devices in a Linkplay group with the minis feeding their active speakers, the Pro feeding the Marantz DAC while the Pro Plus fed the Sonos Port should also be feasible, with the YouTube Music app feeding the Pro Plus either using Bluetooth of preferably AirPlay if your platform is iOS based. Unfortunately if you’re on Android, you couldn’t substitute Chromecast for AirPlay as the minis don’t support that. If you replaced the minis with Pros, and created a Chromecast group in the Google Home app with all the WiiM devices then I suspect that would work as AirPlay did for me.

 

[Jls]

I have been thinking about the synch problem, and one theoretical solution is to use an Ultra as my control preamp, for the TV, Sonos Port, and phono. I listen mostly in the master bedroom, where the TV is.

This lets me have Sonos speakers in the living room, guest rooms, patio and basement. All in synch. It is not important for the TV or phono to supply sound for the rest of the house, but it is important for guests (kids and grandkids) to be able to use the system.

One alternative is to use the Port as an input to the Ultra. This would enable automatic switching, which could be nice.

Another alternative is to use the Ultra as an input to the Port.

 

[chdem]

Sorry but I didn't understand, the Ultra avoids synchro problems, right?

 

[Brantome]

Assuming that my Marantz DAC accepts optical input (and that I agree to use only one audio source by redoing all my playlists), we could imagine that.
Does that sound right to you?
View attachment 7451

Re the second diagram, you couldn’t have the pro plus driving both its RCA and optical ports at the same time, they only allow you to choose one output at a time. That’s why was pressing the Pro into use - it would connect to the DAC while the Pro Plus connected to the Sonos Port.

 

[Brantome]

Sorry, cross answers.

For YT Music and the Bluetooth, doesn't seems to be ok according to your post https://forum.wiimhome.com/threads/youtube-music-please.288/post-19487

I think that’s just addressing the quality issue of using a lossy codec/protocol like BT to transfer an already lossy audio steam. Having said that, I’m sure an awful lot of people use BT headphones to listen to YouTube Music and Spotify, so perhaps I was being a bit purist

 

[ratty]

FWIW you're never going to obtain sync between Sonos devices and WiiM devices with this arrangement. RCA input on Sonos incurs at least 75ms delay. And delays on the non-Sonos side are TBD. Of course serendipity or manual delay tweaking may help a bit, but there'd likely be drift in the absence of active sync.

 

[Brantome]

FWIW you're never going to obtain sync between Sonos devices and WiiM devices with this arrangement. RCA input on Sonos incurs at least 75ms delay. And delays on the non-Sonos side are TBD. Of course serendipity or manual delay tweaking may help a bit, but there'd likely be drift in the absence of active sync.

Thanks, wasn’t aware of that figure but guessed there’s be some latency involved due to the processing of the audio as it passed thru each box.

I suppose the issue might be whether the loss of sync is within earshot or not between the WiiM group and the Sonos group.

 

[ratty]

Thanks, wasn’t aware of that figure but guessed there’s be some latency involved due to the processing of the audio as it passed thru each box.

It isn't processing latency, it's the deliberate addition of playout buffering so as to absorb network jitter. The figure of 75ms is a minimum setting; it can be adjusted up to 2000ms.