Seeking Validation: Liberating from Sonos with a Future-Proof Wiim Expansion Architecture

[Brantome]

Replacing and/or mixing systems in this manner is often problematic. So far we’ve identified lack of native YouTube Music support and mixed service playlists, as well as synchronisation across disparate multi room groups as issues. There may be others yet to be identified but I guess the OP needs to weigh up the plusses and minusses

 

[ratty]

DLNA -- or indeed LMS or Roon -- might offer a better option for such mixed arrangements. A network solution would be much more elegant than daisy-chaining via RCA or SPDIF.

 

[chdem]

Hey there,

I think I've just understood something about airplay & Sonos: even if only a few devices on my system support airplay (the port and 2 Symphonisk), as soon as I group the non-compatible with at least one airplay-compatible device in a room, it can then broadcast the airplay signal.

Stream AirPlay audio to Sonos

Use AirPlay on your iPhone, iPad, or Mac to stream your favorite music, movies, podcasts and other audio directly to your Sonos products.

support.sonos.com

• When an AirPlay compatible Sonos product is playing AirPlay audio, you can group it with any other Sonos product in your system for multi-room playback.

So taking your ideas, the simplest thing I imagine would be

• to airplay with wiim to Sonos
• to link my optical Marantz DAC to a Wiim device.

I'm now wondering about the value of a Wiim pro/pro plus to do this and I'm also wondering if I'm going to have latency between the Wiim and Sonos devices.

What do you think?
Thanks...

 

[Griff]

Replacing and/or mixing systems in this manner is often problematic. So far we’ve identified lack of native YouTube Music support and mixed service playlists, as well as synchronisation across disparate multi room groups as issues. There may be others yet to be identified but I guess the OP needs to weigh up the plusses and minusses

Agreed. I have tried mixing 2 different multi room techs across the house. WIIM and Bluesound. The biggest and unsurmountable problem, for me, was the time delay sync. Both systems synced differently and it was never right if both played together with the same source.
The solution, for me, was to decide on one tech for the whole house multiroom use, that was WIIM, and then you can use the other tech if you wish in specific areas as input to the WIIM whole house group or just linked together.

But they could never run both as outputs with the same source without the music becoming a horrible mess.

 

[ratty]

I'm now wondering about the value of a Wiim pro/pro plus to do this and I'm also wondering if I'm going to have latency between the Wiim and Sonos devices.

Substantial latency, possibly Airplay's standard 2 seconds. As others have stated, hoping for sync'd multiroom play across dissimilar systems is a fool's errand.

 

[Jls]

Is this a place where I can ask a generic question about synchronization?

There seem to be issues with TV lip sync when using digital out from the TV. I’m not having a problem now, but I had to change a setting on my SONOS Port. Is there some basic principle involved, or is this hit or miss?

I once tried mixing Sonos and Bluetooth, with disastrous results.

I would like to mix Sonos and WiiM. Specifically, I would like to keep my Sonos Port, because I don’t want to use AirPlay for streaming. For some unknown [/s] reason there are dozens of Ports on eBay.

Does DSP introduce delay?

Sonos does multi room, and WiiM does multi room, but are they inherently incompatible?

Nevermind. I type so slow that most of my questions are answered..

 

[Jls]

Except one question. If I use a WiiM amp with DSP from a Port, will there be enough latency to screw up room synch?

 

[Mr Ee]

Is this a place where I can ask a generic question about synchronization?

There seem to be issues with TV lip sync when using digital out from the TV. I’m not having a problem now, but I had to change a setting on my SONOS Port. Is there some basic principle involved, or is this hit or miss?

I once tried mixing Sonos and Bluetooth, with disastrous results.

I would like to mix Sonos and WiiM. Specifically, I would like to keep my Sonos Port, because I don’t want to use AirPlay for streaming. For some unknown [/s] reason there are dozens of Ports on eBay.

Does DSP introduce delay?

Sonos does multi room, and WiiM does multi room, but are they inherently incompatible?

Nevermind. I type so slow that most of my questions are answered..

TV lip sync in relation to wiim - as long as the wiim is not in a group I've not had any lip sync issues with tv optical out to wiim optical in.
Put the wiim in a group and it's unwatchable; but imo that's to be expected.

 

[d6jg]

In general terms synchronisation across different systems is not ever going to be perfect.

In this WiiM plus Sonos via Sonos Port example the usage of the WiiM and Port in the proposed Source->WiiM->DAC->Analog->Sonos->ADC->DAC mode will almost certainly introduce some latency as the sginal is being converted at least twice.

LMS and its native players (including Squeezelite instances so WiiM Pro upward) can be synced fairly accurately. The sync process being done on the server which takes feedback from the players as to their relative position in the stream being played and will adjust accordingly.

WiiM take a different approach and use feedback from the devices in-built microphones to control sync. I am unsure how Sonos sync works but I imagine it is more along the LMS lines. UPnP sync is a complete mystery to me.

 

[ratty]

Is this a place where I can ask a generic question about synchronization?

Every situation is different.

There seem to be issues with TV lip sync when using digital out from the TV. I’m not having a problem now, but I had to change a setting on my SONOS Port. Is there some basic principle involved, or is this hit or miss?

Sonos Line-In is a bad idea for TV audio, as the signal is always subject to the minimum 75ms Line-In latency. Sonos make home theatre kit (soundbars mainly) for TV use without such as inherent delay.

Does DSP introduce delay?

Sometimes.

If I use a WiiM amp with DSP from a Port, will there be enough latency to screw up room synch?

As noted you may be okay in terms of any additional latency in the WiiM, but note the comment above that running TV through a Sonos Line-In can -- and usually does -- upset lip-sync overall.

 

[ratty]

I am unsure how Sonos sync works but I imagine it is more along the LMS lines.

The exchange of accurate timing information every second (I think) between the group coordinator node and other members of the playing group.

 

[Jls]

TV lip sync in relation to wiim - as long as the wiim is not in a group I've not had any lip sync issues with tv optical out to wiim optical in.
Put the wiim in a group and it's unwatchable; but imo that's to be expected.

Here’s where I am today. I like Sonos and have a fair bit invested in Ports. I’m afraid WiiM simply hasn’t won me over to their streaming model. I like the streaming apps not on the phone.

What Sonos lacks is a preamp/switcher with a phono input. They are either dense or belligerent. For some reason, Ports are available on eBay. So I’m looking to buy at least one more, to maintain multi room capability, and use WiiM amps for their DSP capability. This is more than I planned to spend, and it will take another year to achieve, but it’s peanuts compared to other brands.

 

[ratty]

What Sonos lacks is a preamp/switcher with a phono input. They are either dense or belligerent.

A bit harsh. Sonos provides for 'legacy' gear via line-level analog inputs. Modern turntables frequently integrate their own phono preamp. For those with posh turntables that don't, well such users would probably want to deploy a posh preamp of their own choosing (and moreover might think twice about running their precious signal through an ADC/DAC).

 

[slartibartfast]

TV lip sync in relation to wiim - as long as the wiim is not in a group I've not had any lip sync issues with tv optical out to wiim optical in.
Put the wiim in a group and it's unwatchable; but imo that's to be expected.

I have my TV optical output connected to the WiiM Amp. If I leave the TV speaker sound on I can here a slight echo effect so sync isn't perfect but close enough to not really be noticeable.

 

[d6jg]

I have my TV optical output connected to the WiiM Amp. If I leave the TV speaker sound on I can here a slight echo effect so sync isn't perfect but close enough to not really be noticeable.

My TV has an "Optical & TV Speakers" or "Optical only" setting.

Q. Does it auto switch on the Amp when you power on TV / start watching?

 

[dtc]

Regarding sync - I have a Pro feeding a DAC and a Mini grouped to the Pro that provides analog to a Sonus Era 100, which connects to the rest of my Sonos speakers. As discussed, the analog input on the Era produces a delay. But, by adjusting the timing between the Pro and the Mini I am able to compensate for that and my DAC/amp/passive speakers are in sync with my Sonos speakers.

Once you group multiple Wiims and add in the Sonos system, it may be harder to get them all in sync. But for the 2 Wiims and a Sonos Era it works for me.

 

[Jls]

What happens if you try to use WiiM as the controller, and airplay to all the Sonos devices?

 

[Jls]

A bit harsh. Sonos provides for 'legacy' gear via line-level analog inputs. Modern turntables frequently integrate their own phono preamp. For those with posh turntables that don't, well such users would probably want to deploy a posh preamp of their own choosing (and moreover might think twice about running their precious signal through an ADC/DAC).

Yes, but all my gear is 20 years old or older. Why wife’s hobby was garage sales, and along the way I picked up a Parasound amp, KEF Reference speakers, a Technics 1200, and some other good stuff. But I’m hooked now on streaming and on a local library of CD rips. I’m keeping my speakers. I just want to tie it together and control it with an app.

If I ever had golden ears, I don’t any more. I’m not interested in audiophile BS. I want competent stuff that is convenient, and I want stuff my kids and grandkids can connect to and play their own stuff.

It has to sound and work better than Bluetooth. And the house is kind of open plan, so the rooms have to synch.

 

[donn]

I would, and do, use Wiim as endpoints and not the server. Roon works, and for the adventurous Music Assistant in Home Assistant. I mostly use Tidal Connect, which both Roon and Music assistant are capable of syncing to many Wiim endpoints. But both are also source agnostic. That is they mix streamed and local files in a playlist without problems.

I find it strange conceptually to do a many zone music system without a central server, but I suppose there is no reason a simple setup can't work. In my home the music or TV playing in a room appears on a wall tablet.

 

[d6jg]

Yes, but all my gear is 20 years old or older. Why wife’s hobby was garage sales, and along the way I picked up a Parasound amp, KEF Reference speakers, a Technics 1200, and some other good stuff. But I’m hooked now on streaming and on a local library of CD rips. I’m keeping my speakers. I just want to tie it together and control it with an app.

If I ever had golden ears, I don’t any more. I’m not interested in audiophile BS. I want competent stuff that is convenient, and I want stuff my kids and grandkids can connect to and play their own stuff.

It has to sound and work better than Bluetooth. And the house is kind of open plan, so the rooms have to synch.

Are you saying that Sonos works for you or is there something missing? If so, what?