Using RoomFit with subwoofer

What are these 18" subwoofers of which you speak?
Ma LS System

Okay

Main speakers
1" HT horn/dipole
2x12" TMT/dipole
180 cm high and folded 140 cm wide ( 98dB)
&
2x18" external bass dipoles 55x55x 30 cm


The high SPL of 98 dB from the main speakers and the sluggish automatic switch-on of the bass mono amp mean that I can't get the volume right when I want to listen quietly.

It's an either/or principle; when it comes to settings, I love a 0 dB master gain.
However, when I use my Heco Zweiklang, it works, but at the expense of layering and precision/resolution of the sound/room structure.
 
Ma LS System

Okay

Main speakers
1" HT horn/dipole
2x12" TMT/dipole
180 cm high and folded 140 cm wide ( 98dB)
&
2x18" external bass dipoles 55x55x 30 cm


The high SPL of 98 dB from the main speakers and the sluggish automatic switch-on of the bass mono amp mean that I can't get the volume right when I want to listen quietly.

It's an either/or principle; when it comes to settings, I love a 0 dB master gain.
However, when I use my Heco Zweiklang, it works, but at the expense of layering and precision/resolution of the sound/room structure.
So the issue is that the amp for the subwoofer doesn't turn on. Have you tried reducing the volume of the subwoofer amp and increasing the sub out of the WiiM Amp by a few dBs?
 
So the issue is that the amp for the subwoofer doesn't turn on. Have you tried reducing the volume of the subwoofer amp and increasing the sub out of the WiiM Amp by a few dBs?

With all due respect, I am no novice when it comes to main speakers and subwoofers.

Acoustically, the BEST option is to set the Wiim sub to 0 dB, position the woofers without time loss = 0 delay and phase at 0, and position them next to the main speakers.

It should be mentioned:

Pre gain at -3 dB, because at 0 dB, the volume 22 setting is already at 80 dB volume on the main speakers.

When I listen to songwriting music or similar genres where nothing happens below 70 Hz, I switch off the mono speakers and increase the frequency of the subwoofer. i.e. above its crossover frequency, this overlaps with the main speaker and, as it is a mono output, it becomes critical with the localizability of the woofers and they run too high, a bowed double bass or bass drum are happy about the fat sound.

The problem lies in the electrical range.
The match between the Wiim Amp Ultra and the monos does not fit.
I got the Wiim Amp Ultra for the Wiim Ultra because of the better DAC implementation.
 
If you post English text on the German-language page, it may be posted in German. Please post your English text while this forum is displayed in English using Chrome's automatic translation.
(I also use a translation app 🙂)

I've been wary of Google's translation software since an English colleague managed to upset a Danish project manager on a project we were jointly working on.

The company was called Stirling Denmark (SDK - now defunct), but in his written correspondence my colleague kept referring to it as Sterling Denmark, so the Danish project manager corrected him. He was mortified by his mistake, so wrote her a letter of apology in English and translated into Danish to make it more personal for her.

At the next meeting the Danish project manager thanked him for his letter of apology, but asked what he had meant by the final line, which (in Danish) read "in future I will try to be more difficult".

He had to explain that what he had written (in English) was "in future I will try harder". :) :)
 
Blending sub and main is never an easy task. That’s why many opt on tower with multiple driver array. There was a device that I used before that able to blend sub and main. It was mini dsp with fully loaded features and wide range of slope. I’m not sure if such feature from mini dsp can be implemented via firmware on wiim or need new hardware to do that.
 
Unfortunately, due to the 64 Hz crossover frequency of the subwoofers, the sub output of the Wiim is too quiet when you want to listen at a low volume, and my monos Amp don't kick in.
Where does the 64 Hz crossover come from? Is that a fixed frequency built into your subwoofers? Which make and model? If they are DIY designs, wich components have been used?

As a reminder, the Wiim output is mono and above 80 Hz it is simply a disaster.
WiiM does not enforce any crossover frequency on you. You can freely select the frequency between 30 Hz and 250 Hz. And no, a crossover frequency above 80 Hz is not necessarily a disaster. It all depends.

Did you notice that you can individually enable or disable the high pass filter for the passive loudspeakers and the low pass filter for the active subwoofer(s) in the WiiM Home app? You can even disable both at the same time (in the rare cases this makes sense). Additionally, you can configure the subwoofer level from -15 dB to + 15 dB. The correct value must be found individually for each and every setup, because it depends on the main speakers' efficiency, the subwoofers' efficiency, and the subwoofer amplifier's gain (and volume setting). With typical subwoofer plate amps, the subwoofer level often even depends a lot on the crossover setting selected on the plate amp (which is the fault of the plate amp). There's nothing magically right in the 0 dB setting. Finally you can adjust the time delay between the main speakers and the subwoofer(s). No individual correction for a right and a left sub, of course, since it is single mono output, as you already know.

Pre gain at -3 dB, because at 0 dB, the volume 22 setting is already at 80 dB volume on the main speakers.
Pre-gain has nothing to do with matching the main speakers an the subwoofers at all, that should be clear. But yes, with very high efficiency speakers the sound pressure level can be quite high at medium to low volume level settings, in particular with streaming sources. Again, this is not related to subwoofer integration. If your intention is to lower the output volume of the WiiM Amp Ultra for all sources, not just for one or two, then it's more efficient to set a volume limit (Lautstärkebegrenzung) in the audio settings (Audioeinstellungen) instead of reducing pre-gain. The name might seem to imply otherwise, but this is not some kind of limiter. You retain 100 steps for the volume setting, but the output power is reduced proportionally. If you are looking for a 3 dB decrease in sound pressure level set the volume limit to -5 dB. A setting of -10 dB will result in a 6 dB less SPL.

When I listen to songwriting music or similar genres where nothing happens below 70 Hz, I switch off the mono speakers and increase the frequency of the subwoofer. i.e. above its crossover frequency, this overlaps with the main speaker and, as it is a mono output, it becomes critical with the localizability of the woofers and they run too high, a bowed double bass or bass drum are happy about the fat sound.

The problem lies in the electrical range.
The match between the Wiim Amp Ultra and the monos does not fit.
I got the Wiim Amp Ultra for the Wiim Ultra because of the better DAC implementation.
What are the "monos" or "mono speakers" you keep referring to? Your subwoofers? If so, it would be a lot easier if you would simply call them like this.

Also, what's the thing with your Heco Zweiklang? These are certainly not dipole speakers so not what you described as your speaker system. Are you running two pairs of stereo speakers with the same dual subwoofers? How do you switch between them?

The problem lies in the electrical range.
The match between the Wiim Amp Ultra and the monos does not fit.
I got the Wiim Amp Ultra for the Wiim Ultra because of the better DAC implementation.
Which electrical range? What actually is the problem? I still struggle to get it.

Are you actually asking for help with your setup (in which case you will find a bunch of very knowledgable community members here) or did you just come to report that something was wrong with the WiiM Amp Ultra subwoofer output (which is simply not the case)?

If the former, it would also be very helpful if you would start your very own thread describing your own situation in a matching subforum instead of hijacking other people's threads. We are now discussing your WiiM Amp Ultra issues in a thread that's been started for a WiiM Pro in the appropriate forum, which is a totally different animal. Nothing, really almost literally nothing that is important when setting up subwoofers with a WiiM Amp Ultra is even comparable to what is required using a WiiM Pro.
 
Where does the 64 Hz crossover come from? Is that a fixed frequency built into your subwoofers? Which make and model? If they are DIY designs, wich components have been used?


WiiM does not enforce any crossover frequency on you. You can freely select the frequency between 30 Hz and 250 Hz. And no, a crossover frequency above 80 Hz is not necessarily a disaster. It all depends.

Did you notice that you can individually enable or disable the high pass filter for the passive loudspeakers and the low pass filter for the active subwoofer(s) in the WiiM Home app? You can even disable both at the same time (in the rare cases this makes sense). Additionally, you can configure the subwoofer level from -15 dB to + 15 dB. The correct value must be found individually for each and every setup, because it depends on the main speakers' efficiency, the subwoofers' efficiency, and the subwoofer amplifier's gain (and volume setting). With typical subwoofer plate amps, the subwoofer level often even depends a lot on the crossover setting selected on the plate amp (which is the fault of the plate amp). There's nothing magically right in the 0 dB setting. Finally you can adjust the time delay between the main speakers and the subwoofer(s). No individual correction for a right and a left sub, of course, since it is single mono output, as you already know.


Pre-gain has nothing to do with matching the main speakers an the subwoofers at all, that should be clear. But yes, with very high efficiency speakers the sound pressure level can be quite high at medium to low volume level settings, in particular with streaming sources. Again, this is not related to subwoofer integration. If your intention is to lower the output volume of the WiiM Amp Ultra for all sources, not just for one or two, then it's more efficient to set a volume limit (Lautstärkebegrenzung) in the audio settings (Audioeinstellungen) instead of reducing pre-gain. The name might seem to imply otherwise, but this is not some kind of limiter. You retain 100 steps for the volume setting, but the output power is reduced proportionally. If you are looking for a 3 dB decrease in sound pressure level set the volume limit to -5 dB. A setting of -10 dB will result in a 6 dB less SPL.

I have now reactivated the volume limiter.

Please correct me if I am wrong:

I assumed that the volume control is digital and that anything below 0 or 100% represents a bit reduction. That is why I had deactivated it again.

In the image of the status quo,


I played two albums:
Solo Live / Nenad Vasilic - Double Bass

and

Alice / Il Sole Nella Pioggia.

While the mono channels on Alice switched off after 30 seconds,

The problem is primarily not the DSP, but the mono output. I assume that, according to the SPL diagram, depending on the music genre, there is little level below 64 Hz, which is not sufficient for the automatic switch-on/switch-off of the mono S.

Setting the sub crossover frequency in mono to < 75 Hz is not effective with these speakers.

In conclusion:

I'm listening to Elektro Guzzi's track Irritation (techno without synthesizer) with only trumpet, guitar, and drums... with the settings as shown in the picture... the bass turned off, but in the next track, it turned back on again.

Within these 3 albums, the volume difference is easily +6dB.
 

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Since the source/DAC/amp/DSP is integrated into the Wiim Amp Ultra and my other system has a modular design, there was only one option for achieving equal level ratios.

At a distance of 50 cm, the main speaker had to have the same SPL value at 1 kHz for the sine wave and for pink noise at the bass cabinet.

Off Topic


As far as the data issue was concerned, click, click through the library, simultaneously scan the files to see which bit/byte volume they originated from, and on the fly you can intervene in the PEQ and EQ parameters as you wish, etc., etc.

On Topic

RoomFit & Subwoofer Integration.

First of all, the path is in stereo, which makes all the issues I have with RoomFit almost obsolete.

I also have some in the Ridthaler principle (folded) for the bass U profile, where variable phase detection would be more helpful.

Another advantage, at least for me, is that TMT/HT & TT = subwoofers have identical amplifiers in mono version.
 
The problem is primarily not the DSP, but the mono output. I assume that, according to the SPL diagram, depending on the music genre, there is little level below 64 Hz, which is not sufficient for the automatic switch-on/switch-off of the mono S.
Then just try what @slartibartfast already said before: turn the volume down on the sub directly and make it a few dBs louder in subwoofer settings through the WiiM Home App. So the input signal is amplified for your sub then (enough to switch on automatically), but the volume kept at the right level through reducing it on the sub directly. I hope it's understandable for you.
 
These are the settings
Volume limit = 88%
Sub Out = + 15 %
Pre Gain = 0 dB

Since the listening situation is not known in this forum and in order to classify it correctly.
At the listening position > 75 dB, the bass amp works constantly.
Since it is an old building with wooden floors, the neighbors in the house are thrown out of their beds in the evening and at night.

60-65 dB at the listening position is
a) not a noise nuisance
b) absolutely sufficient for me
c ) the bass amp, with its automatic switch-on function, does not do this.
According to the company, the sensitivity has been increased by 14 dB in the new models. Knowing this, I reduced the amp volume by 50% from the outset.

A dB reduction anywhere results in an increase in another area.

The amp in bypass mode does not work at all, and neither does the amp < 50%, so the resistor that keeps the sensitivity low must be removed. The resistor is 1 mm x 03 mm.🫣
 

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And now to the topic of subwoofer integration.

My assumption that the volume limitation was not bit perfect was incorrect.

Otherwise, the suggestions to do this and that, turn this on or that off, were charming.

The app is intuitive and self-explanatory 👍🏼

The idea that system A does not quite work with system B according to expectations does not seem to exist here.

Especially in the subwoofer range, which in normal rooms pushes along in mono, I dared to ask a sidestep question with the RT 60 value < 60-70 Hz...nothing came.

How am I supposed to get an idea of what the term "fantastic" really means? What reference point should I use?

The subwoofer tool is still uncomplicated and geared toward the consumer environment. Which is completely justified.

But to act as if it were the "holy" grail?

Not at all.

Bye
 
And now to the topic of subwoofer integration.

My assumption that the volume limitation was not bit perfect was incorrect.

Otherwise, the suggestions to do this and that, turn this on or that off, were charming.

The app is intuitive and self-explanatory 👍🏼

The idea that system A does not quite work with system B according to expectations does not seem to exist here.

Especially in the subwoofer range, which in normal rooms pushes along in mono, I dared to ask a sidestep question with the RT 60 value < 60-70 Hz...nothing came.

How am I supposed to get an idea of what the term "fantastic" really means? What reference point should I use?

The subwoofer tool is still uncomplicated and geared toward the consumer environment. Which is completely justified.

But to act as if it were the "holy" grail?

Not at all.

Bye
I don’t have a response for you regarding my dad’s setup because I don’t have the measurements anymore.

If you want a graphic illustration and numbers and graphs for, “fantastic,” from my perspective, see these sweeps from my own system where the sub plays flat down to 12Hz in-room.

IMG_0419.png
IMG_0420.png

-Ed
 
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