Wiim Ultra with SVS Micro 3000

[Lagavulin]

Are there any members here running the SVS Micro 3000 with their Wiim Ultra?
I've just ordered one for exclusive use with my two channel music system.
I picked this one for size and reviews as it is to be used in an apartment and didn't want one that would rock the walls of my neighbours below.
It is to be used with my two way speakers that I alternate between those being Sonus Faber Guarneri Memento's and Tannoy Eaton Legacy.
The Guarneri frequency range is stated to be 39 - 30k hz whilst the Tannoy's is a very similar 40 - 30k hz.
As for amplication I've combined the Vibe link with the Ultra via toslink for maximum output ... but I also have a range of amplifiers I swap in and out for use with the Ultra depending on which speakers I'm listening to or music genre. Sometimes it's the low powered but lovely sounding (and to look at) Leben 300xs, at other times it's a Roksan Caspian M2 or an AVI S21 via RCA.

I'm busy reading the Wiim Subwoofer setup guides ... especially crossover points to put the main bass duties to the subwoofer and leave the speakers to concentrate on mids and highs.

Any advice and tips especially if there are members out there using the SVS subwoofer (and it's own control app).

 

[mrehorst]

I have an SVS 3000 Micro paired with Quad ESL-63 electrostatics, driven by a Wiim Amp Pro. I use the LFE input (the source - i.e. the Wiim amp- selects the crossover frequency) on the sub and set the crossover to 90 Hz in the Wiim Home App. For these speakers it seems about right, but I'm still playing with it. My room is 16' wide x 33' long with 11' ceilings (with rafters and beams). The SVS 3000 easily plays low enough and loud enough to have the neighbors banging on the walls (which is louder than I ever want to play it). Using the active crossover allows the Quads to play louder, while still low in distortion, than they can when operated full range.

I originally got the Wiim Amp Pro for my bedroom, but like it so much with the Quads, I may have to get another one.

The SVS app has worked perfectly for me in the 1.5 years I've had the sub. You can set its level and crossover frequency, adjust phase, and save settings as named presets that you can select later. The sub turns on when it detects input (it seems to take a 2-3 seconds) and goes back to standby shortly after music stops. I have never heard it make any noises- no hum, hiss, thumps, or anything like that. You can make all adjustments from your listening position using the phone app. There are manually operated controls on the back of the sub that allow you to make adjustments. I've never actually used those controls.

I mostly stream music from my own server and Tidal, and occasionally, pandora. With the current setup, when I want to play music, I take out my phone or use an android tablet, select music, hit play and the system (Wiim Amp Pro and SVS sub) wakes up, plays the selected music and when the music stops, the system goes back to standby.

I was using a robot vacuum cleaner for a while and didn't want it banging into the sub's nice white finish, so I built a small stand that lifts the sub about 4" off the floor. I no longer use the robot vacuum cleaner, but the stand helps protect the sub from the regular vacuum cleaner, too.

 

[canard]

It's the type of music you listen to that's interesting...(?) (which can lead to a different understanding of needs/settings)
(not the streaming provider ;-) )

 

[Lagavulin]

I can see the attraction of running a sub alongside of the electrostatics ... I can imagine how good that sounds
As for annoying the neighbours that is the last thing I want to do
I've read numerous reports of how a sub can improve the overall sound by filling in the bottom notes and allowing your main speakers freedom from those frequencies to give of their best. Dialling in the sub so as to make it as seamless as possible is my hope ... I chose the 3000 micro as I wasn't after plunging the depths, but because it was small even innocuous, yet had the power and hopefully finesse to give that extra 5 or 10% over that if the Tannoy's or Sonus Faber's. Hope I chose right
Now I need to get a 5 mtr or so RCA cable to go from the ultra's sub out to the SVS's Lfe in ... nothing fancy any suggestions?
Do you, or have you then run the Ultra's roomfit again with the sub out switched to on? Run the Subwoofer & Speakers sync presumably with the default settings of off for the Subwoofer Bypass Mode and Main Speakers Output Bass? Do you leave it to Ultra then to do all the processing?
Does that configuration result in the sub handling the frequencies below the crossover frequency and the main speakers everything above?
The Ultra seems to default to 80 Hz for the crossover but is that the right setting for the SVS Micro 3000? Or is it trial and error from there by listening and using your own ears?
Sorry for all the questions ... I'm a virgin(well at least as far as subs are concerned).
At what point is the SVS app used? Fine tuning from your listening position?
Any guidance happily accepted

 

[mrehorst]

The SVS 3000 Micro won't disappoint you.

In the Wiim app you select the settings for the Wiim device, select Sub Out, turn on the sub output, turn off "subwoofer bypass mode", turn off "main speakers output bass". Then you have high pass on the signal going to the main speakers and low pass applied to the subwoofer output.

The crossover frequency will be set by the Wiim Home App, not the sub (when you use its LFE input). You will have to go into the Sub app and turn off the low pass filter (which switches the sub to LFE mode). The crossover frequency you use is primarily a function of the main speakers' low frequency response. Bookshelf speakers might go down to 50-60 Hz, so you'd set the crossover frequency a bit above that- maybe 70-80 Hz (hence the default 80 Hz). The response your speakers actually deliver in your room is going to depend on room size, speaker placement, listening position, so you may need to play with the crossover frequency beyond just setting it according to the main speaker specs.

You can include the sub in the RoomFit tests, but very low frequency response is largely a function of room dimensions, sub placement, and listening position. Response can vary wildly, so trying to equalize at very low frequencies is generally not done - you might end up with room fit trying to boost 30 Hz 10 dB because of a suck out at that frequency that doesn't exist a few feet away from the test position in the room. At very high frequencies, the response will vary over very small distances, as in the distance from the microphone to your ear, so usually you don't want to try to equalize to 20 kHz, but limit the top of the equalization test/adjustment to just a few kHz.

The cable you use to connect to the sub is uncritical. It's only has to carry the lowest frequencies to the sub. I wouldn't spent a lot of money on it (or any other cable, for that matter).

I think the eq adjustments can result in some changes in the phase relationship between the signal going to the sub and those going to the main speakers, so I think it's best to run the bass sync after you've finished RoomFit and/or manual eq adjustments. I could be wrong. The bass sync measures delays between the sub and listening position and the main speakers and listening position, and then it adjusts either the sub output or the main speaker outputs so that the delays are equal. Differences in delays occur because of differences in location of the main speakers and the sub, and because of differences in processing delays in the DSP in the sub and the Wiim device. It's a lot like adjusting the audio/video delay to get the sounds synced to the video on your TV.

The sub has a phase adjustment that is different from the sync that the Wiim device does. It's intended to get the sub and main speakers bass in phase at the crossover frequency. I don't know the recommended technique for setting that except to listen to it and adjust it until it sounds right. I think impulse type sounds like kick drums are probably the best thing to use to adjust the subwoofer phase by ear. In phase means that when the main speaker cones move out at the crossover frequency, the subwoofer cone also moves out.

The crossover in the Wiim devices is a Linkwitz-Riley 4th order type. You can chase that rabbit down this hole.

 

[Lagavulin]

Thank you for such a detailed and informative reply. I can see that I will probably enjoy fun and frustration in equal measures setting this up
I will certainly refer back to your reply when I begin the process of integration.
You mention that Wiim appear to set the crossover at 80Hz based on average frequency range for bookshelf speakers around 50-60Hz .... my usual speakers will go down to about 40Hz sometimes below that due to room boundary reinforcement. Does that mean that perhaps I should start with a crossover a bit lower than 80Hz ... perhaps 60-70Hz?
I know that's an impossible question with all the variables at play but you have to start somewhere. The room is 16 ft x 16ft with a vaulted ceiling.

 

[slartibartfast]

The SVS 3000 Micro won't disappoint you.

In the Wiim app you select the settings for the Wiim device, select Sub Out, turn on the sub output, turn off "subwoofer bypass mode", turn off "main speakers output bass". Then you have high pass on the signal going to the main speakers and low pass applied to the subwoofer output.

The crossover frequency will be set by the Wiim Home App, not the sub (when you use its LFE input). You will have to go into the Sub app and turn off the low pass filter (which switches the sub to LFE mode). The crossover frequency you use is primarily a function of the main speakers' low frequency response. Bookshelf speakers might go down to 50-60 Hz, so you'd set the crossover frequency a bit above that- maybe 70-80 Hz (hence the default 80 Hz). The response your speakers actually deliver in your room is going to depend on room size, speaker placement, listening position, so you may need to play with the crossover frequency beyond just setting it according to the main speaker specs.

You can include the sub in the RoomFit tests, but very low frequency response is largely a function of room dimensions, sub placement, and listening position. Response can vary wildly, so trying to equalize at very low frequencies is generally not done - you might end up with room fit trying to boost 30 Hz 10 dB because of a suck out at that frequency that doesn't exist a few feet away from the test position in the room. At very high frequencies, the response will vary over very small distances, as in the distance from the microphone to your ear, so usually you don't want to try to equalize to 20 kHz, but limit the top of the equalization test/adjustment to just a few kHz.

The cable you use to connect to the sub is uncritical. It's only has to carry the lowest frequencies to the sub. I wouldn't spent a lot of money on it (or any other cable, for that matter).

I think the eq adjustments can result in some changes in the phase relationship between the signal going to the sub and those going to the main speakers, so I think it's best to run the bass sync after you've finished RoomFit and/or manual eq adjustments. I could be wrong. The bass sync measures delays between the sub and listening position and the main speakers and listening position, and then it adjusts either the sub output or the main speaker outputs so that the delays are equal. Differences in delays occur because of differences in location of the main speakers and the sub, and because of differences in processing delays in the DSP in the sub and the Wiim device. It's a lot like adjusting the audio/video delay to get the sounds synced to the video on your TV.

The sub has a phase adjustment that is different from the sync that the Wiim device does. It's intended to get the sub and main speakers bass in phase at the crossover frequency. I don't know the recommended technique for setting that except to listen to it and adjust it until it sounds right. I think impulse type sounds like kick drums are probably the best thing to use to adjust the subwoofer phase by ear. In phase means that when the main speaker cones move out at the crossover frequency, the subwoofer cone also moves out.

The crossover in the Wiim devices is a Linkwitz-Riley 4th order type. You can chase that rabbit down this hole.

On my sub I think the phase adjustment knob is only useful when using the sub crossover control. As far as I know a 180 degree phase setting means 180 degrees at the crossover frequency. When using the WiiM to set the crossover it doesn't have any effect. So just leave the sub phase adjustment alone and use the settings in the WiiM app.

 

[Lagavulin]

Any thoughts on which of the two settings marked is the preferred one .... Do you want full frequency from the sub and restricted on the mains or both restricted to their roles above and below the crossover frequency?

 

[slartibartfast]

Any thoughts on which of the two settings marked is the preferred one .... Do you want full frequency from the sub and restricted on the mains or both restricted to their roles above and below the crossover frequency?

View attachment 29085

I would start with both off to get the full benefit of the WiiM crossover.

 

[Lagavulin]

Sorry but another question ....

The tutorial on syncing the sub and the main speakers shows the Wiim Device (Ultra in my case) in the same plane and centre between speakers and the sub. I think I read somewhere that the Ultra is used for measurement and not your mic or phone is that correct?
My ultra and amps are off to the right and about 9ft from the speakers - do I have to move them as shown in the attached photo? I might have got this totally wrong

 

[Goodnews]

Any thoughts on which of the two settings marked is the preferred one .... Do you want full frequency from the sub and restricted on the mains or both restricted to their roles above and below the crossover frequency?

View attachment 29085

Don't you think that 40 Hz from the main speakers is sufficient and that a Monopol subwoofer should be positioned not on the axis of the main speakers, but between 30 and 40 Hz, so that the room gain can be utilized? Neumann offers some interesting alternatives. Whether this can be leveled with the Wiim DSP is another question.

 

[slartibartfast]

Sorry but another question ....

The tutorial on syncing the sub and the main speakers shows the Wiim Device (Ultra in my case) in the same plane and centre between speakers and the sub. I think I read somewhere that the Ultra is used for measurement and not your mic or phone is that correct?
My ultra and amps are off to the right and about 9ft from the speakers - do I have to move them as shown in the attached photo? I might have got this totally wrong

View attachment 29086

Yup that is the major problem with the WiiM method of synchronising the speakers and sub. If you have a measurement microphone and Room Equalisation Wizard on a PC you can use that to find the optimum delay. If you can temporarily place the Ultra at the listening position that also works.

 

[Lagavulin]

Don't you think that 40 Hz from the main speakers is sufficient and that a Monopol subwoofer should be positioned not on the axis of the main speakers, but between 30 and 40 Hz, so that the room gain can be utilized? Neumann offers some interesting alternatives. Whether this can be leveled with the Wiim DSP is another question.

I'm not sure what exactly you are saying here? Yes the main speakers do go down to 40Hz which is reasonable ... but I'd read so much about the added benefits of adding a subwoofer to enhance the musical experience.
The SVS 3000 Micro will push frequency response to the mid 20Hz ... but I don't intend to hit high spl's with it and have my neighbours knocking on my door
I'm not sure about placement yet but initial thoughts are to have it about 1ft being the main speakers and probably near the corner of the room ... but who knows how it will turn out?

 

[Goodnews]

Yup that is the major problem with the WiiM method of synchronising the speakers and sub. If you have a measurement microphone and Room Equalisation Wizard on a PC you can use that to find the optimum delay. If you can temporarily place the Ultra at the listening position that also works.

How is that possible? A microphone is installed in the devices.

How so? The devices have a MESS microphone installed for calibration, and positioning the Wiim at my listening position for measurements would require an infinite number of meters of LS or nF cable.

Am I missing something here?

 

[slartibartfast]

How is that possible? A microphone is installed in the devices.

How so? The devices have a MESS microphone installed for calibration, and positioning the Wiim at my listening position for measurements would require an infinite number of meters of LS or nF cable.

Am I missing something here?

How is what possible? The speaker/sub sync uses a microphone in the WiiM device. It has been regularly ridiculed in the forum but nothing has changed.

 

[Goodnews]

Now I understand the interpretation of the measurement results, which are different from those of my other DSP system. By the way, they are available for "little" money. Either stored in the PC or outside the PC, in an external box, positioned between the preamplifier and power amplifier, in XLR & stereo.

The Italians just know how to do it.

 

[Lagavulin]

Yup that is the major problem with the WiiM method of synchronising the speakers and sub. If you have a measurement microphone and Room Equalisation Wizard on a PC you can use that to find the optimum delay. If you can temporarily place the Ultra at the listening position that also works.

Apologies for being rather slow on the uptake but in the Wiim diagram the Wiim device is shown in the same plane as the main speakers and subwoofer ... however you are suggesting that the Wiim device can be temporarily placed in the listening position (which in my case is some 9ft from the main speakers) so which is correct? Are both scenarios correct?
I recall reading exchanges by members on this but I can't find it now. If anyone knows the answer to this please chip in as this takes some taking in for a sub newbie

 

[Goodnews]

Apologies for being rather slow on the uptake but in the Wiim diagram the Wiim device is shown in the same plane as the main speakers and subwoofer ... however you are suggesting that the Wiim device can be temporarily placed in the listening position (which in my case is some 9ft from the main speakers) so which is correct? Are both scenarios correct?
I recall reading exchanges by members on this but I can't find it now. If anyone knows the answer to this please chip in as this takes some taking in for a sub newbie

With the Wiim Amp Ultra, this refers to the synchronization between the main speaker and the subwoofer(s). For me, this means that the delay from the subwoofer to the main speaker or vice versa is measured... There is no mention whatsoever of placing the Wiim device between the speaker system.

 

[Lagavulin]

With the Wiim Amp Ultra, this refers to the synchronization between the main speaker and the subwoofer(s). For me, this means that the delay from the subwoofer to the main speaker or vice versa is measured... There is no mention whatsoever of placing the Wiim device between the speaker system.

Which makes sense ... what's confusing is that the diagram that Wiim have posted with the instructions shows the Ultra or Amp Ultra in the same plane as the main speakers (see earlier post).
So if I place the Wiim Ultra in my listening position it will sync the delay between the main speakers and the subwoofer ... that makes sense (I think)

 

[slartibartfast]

Apologies for being rather slow on the uptake but in the Wiim diagram the Wiim device is shown in the same plane as the main speakers and subwoofer ... however you are suggesting that the Wiim device can be temporarily placed in the listening position (which in my case is some 9ft from the main speakers) so which is correct? Are both scenarios correct?
I recall reading exchanges by members on this but I can't find it now. If anyone knows the answer to this please chip in as this takes some taking in for a sub newbie

WiiM don't recommend moving the device to the listening position but that is the only way to achieve the correct delay. The WiiM method might give a ballpark delay that approximately compensates for processing delays but it doesn't ensure optimum phase response around the crossover frequency at the listening position. WiiM even confirmed that further adjustments would be required after the sync was performed.
With REW you can observe the frequency response at the crossover frequency as you change the delay.