Beta Test: Subwoofer calibration

[Wiimer]

Apparently it doesn't choose a level that doesn't need boosting. All reports so far make it sound fairly useless particularly as you can't separate the level and timing.

This is a simple question, but does the delay time change if the subwoofer volume is different?

For example, if the Ultra volume remains at 80%, will the delay time differ between when the subwoofer volume is set to 0 dB and when it is set to -5 dB?

If the delay time remains constant, then all I need to do after calibration is simply set the subwoofer volume back to 0 dB.

 

[hipoagumol]

I am getting different delay results with beta than with official firmware, both measured with same external usb mic at the same listening position. So i think the beta does not only add the level calibration but also changes timing allignment algorithms or the level one influences the timing method...Just empirically this is what i observed. I would appreciate if wiim would explain a bit more/participated actively in the beta testing thread and responded to user's feeback.

 

[canard]

(Oops... I didn't quite realize that the topic here wasn't the remote control microphone... The idea abandoned? What about this approach? At least for precise time/phase alignment for sub ?)

 

[slartibartfast]

(Oops... I didn't quite realize that the topic here wasn't the remote control microphone... The idea abandoned? What about this approach? At least for precise time/phase alignment for sub ?)

It's in the latest firmware already

 

[canard]

Okay..but waiting in wiim home too, no?

... But... what microphones are you using for your discussions here? In bêta?

 

[slartibartfast]

Okay..but waiting in wiim home too, no?

... But... what microphones are you using for your discussions here? In bêta?

The beta part is automatic level setting combined with timing. Phone mic and external mics are supported. Strange thing is people are getting vastly different delays with the beta firmware compared to the official firmware.

 

[Wiimer]

but also changes timing allignment algorithms or the level one influences the timing method

I don’t think the timing changes depending on the sub’s volume, but I asked because I don’t have the knowledge to prove it.

 

[Wiimer]

(Oops... I didn't quite realize that the topic here wasn't the remote control microphone... The idea abandoned? What about this approach? At least for precise time/phase alignment for sub ?)

The WiiM Remote's microphone isn't working yet. I haven't heard anything from the team about this.

 

[slartibartfast]

The WiiM Remote's microphone isn't working yet. I haven't heard anything from the team about this.

Oh he meant the mic in the remote control not a remote microphone

 

[canard]

The idea was amusing...

but honestly... if we can get a relevant measurement via the microphone of a phone or tablet, allowing for phase/delay adjustment for the subwoofer... it's not very interesting anymore...


(It would also be an opportunity to offer a more precise and extensive range of phase settings in Wiim Home and the "DSP" processing... not just 0/180...)

 

[harkpabst]

I don’t think the timing changes depending on the sub’s volume, but I asked because I don’t have the knowledge to prove it.

And you're right, the timing doesn't change with level.

If the results concerning the delay do change, this is most likely an indication of a too low level, so results get less and less reliable.

I don't think that the mic built into the remote is sufficiently sensitive at low frequencies and possibly has too high variations from sample to sample (or from batch to batch) to be useful. This would have been the .ist elegant approach, but WiiM never mentioned to be working on that, IIRC.

 

[Wiimer]

And you're right, the timing doesn't change with level.

If the results concerning the delay do change, this is most likely an indication of a too low level, so results get less and less reliable.

Thanks.

So, as things stand, I guess the subwoofer volume issue can be avoided by running the RoomFit evaluation after calibrating the subwoofer and then manually adjusting the Sub-level.

In any case, leaving things as they are will likely lead to confusion.

I don't think that the mic built o to the remote is sufficiently sensitive at low frequencies and possibly has too high variations from sample to sample (or from batch to batch) to be useful. This would have been the .ist elegant approach, but WiiM never mentioned to be working on that, IIRC.

Yeah, as far as I recall, the team mentioned the device’s built-in microphone. (My memory is a bit fuzzy..)

 

[harkpabst]

After all, this is a beta test and WiiM is asking for feedback ...

 

[slartibartfast]

And you're right, the timing doesn't change with level.

If the results concerning the delay do change, this is most likely an indication of a too low level, so results get less and less reliable.

I don't think that the mic built o to the remote is sufficiently sensitive at low frequencies and possibly has too high variations from sample to sample (or from batch to batch) to be useful. This would have been the .ist elegant approach, but WiiM never mentioned to be working on that, IIRC.

Does the level really not change the required delay? A higher sub level will raise the effective crossover frequency where the speaker and subwoofer have equal SPL.

 

[harkpabst]

Does the level really not change the required delay? A higher sub level will raise the effective crossover frequency where the speaker and subwoofer have equal SPL.

Correct, but level and timing are still fully independent parameters. An inappropriately chosen subwoofer level might also affect the SPL around the crossover frequency, just like badly chosen delay. But you cannot compensate for one of them by changing the other.

The main task of the sub level adjustment is to make sure that the SPL below the crossover frequency (in the sole operating range of the sub) is right. The time difference between a sound wave reaching the ear emitted from either the main speakers or the subwoofer does not change at all, not matter if there is a difference in level or not.

For purely practical reasons there must be enough SPL output from the speakers (and especially from the sub) for the microphone to pick it up reliably. If in doubt, make sure there's rather too much than too little output from the subwoofer, just for this simple reason. Independently from this we all want to use No-Boost Mode when running RoomFit. This is yet another reason to rather start with a too high than a too low subwoofer level. All this does not change the delay.

If in the end the physically correct delay and the amount of subwoofer level that is required to have it measured reliably and allows the use of Non-Boost Mode really results in a too high level in the frequency range around the crossover frequency, then this is something that RoomFit can fix very easily.

 

[s3igell]

I don't think that the mic built o to the remote is sufficiently sensitive at low frequencies and possibly has too high variations from sample to sample (or from batch to batch) to be useful. This would have been the .ist elegant approach, but WiiM never mentioned to be working on that, IIRC.

Yeah, as far as I recall, the team mentioned the device’s built-in microphone. (My memory is a bit fuzzy..)

I believe the first mention of using the WiiM Ultra and Amp built-in microphone was put forward out of "desperation" because of the weak and varied performance of many phone mics at the frequency extremes low and high while those built-in were a known quantity (even if located in the wrong location for a precision measurement of Speaker vs sub). The Remote's Voice Mic most likely lacked the sensitivity, but worse because its bluetooth connection would add latency. Plus it likely had almost ZERO spare memory for any substantial code or data storage.

 

[Wiimer]

I was hoping the Remote 2 would have a high-performance microphone, but that didn't happen.

I'm looking forward to the Dayton collaboration Remote 3.

This is not an e-cigarette.

 

[canard]

I was hoping the Remote 2 would have a high-performance microphone, but that didn't happen.

I'm looking forward to the Dayton collaboration Remote 3.
View attachment 37564
This is not an e-cigarette.

Wiim could already make a economic package with Dayton and their little USB microphone... an additional proposal...
;-)

(Off-topic aside: I haven't followed the Roomfit project for a very long time... but is it normal that the MMM feature still appears in beta in my case (Android)? Is there no way to define a maximum number of PEQ points for correction? a "central" thread on roomfit?)

 

[harkpabst]

(Off-topic aside: I haven't followed the Roomfit project for a very long time... but is it normal that the MMM feature still appears in beta in my case (Android)? Is there no way to define a maximum number of PEQ points for correction? a "central" thread on roomfit?)

Yes (beta) and yes (number of PEQ filters not configurable).

 

[canard]

Yes (beta) and yes (number of PEQ filters not configurable).

The MMM is an old topic...
Hasn't it been finalized?
Is it not really usable, or are there issues at the moment in beta?
The possibility of limiting the number of points shouldn't be too difficult to integrate... and for those who want to significantly limit the correction window in terms of bandwidth...
it seems rather welcome to me.
No?