How will a non-WiiM amplifier sound in my room?

[Alexandru2705]

I just bought & installed the WiiM Ultra today, connected it to a Denon 2113 receiver (by RCA) and to a LG UR 8100 tv (by HDMI). Upon installation it did the software update. I listen to lossless FLAC files on a 256 gb USB stick inserted on WiiM Ultra usb port. Speaker system is MA BX2 BXC BXFX - of course, with the WiiM only using the fronts BX2.

I have to say I'm rather underwhelmed by the sound quality on Pure Direct setting of the Denon 2113 , as compared to when I listened to same FLAC files with the USB stick inserted on the front USB port of the Denon 2113 (no WiiM in the picture). And I'm clearly underwhelmed by the sound quality on tv programs, when forced in one of the Denon 2113 surround settings - this time compared to how it sounded when, again, the WiiM was not connected to the Denon & LG. But I agree that, in this latter case, the DAC from the WiiM is not actually used.

Why is this happening? Isn't the WiiM Ultra's DAC supposed to be clearly superior to the DAC found in the Denon 2113 (a 2012 model)?

Thank you for your thoughts.

 

[Ronnie D]

Thank you for your thoughts.

Welcome

This tutorial should get you started. You can get the Ultra to sound any way you want ( pretty much)

Tutorial: Getting the Best Listening Experience with Your WiiM Device

This tutorial provides steps to enhance the audio quality of your WiiM device for an immersive listening experience. 1. Use High-Quality Source High-Resolution Audio Files: Play high-resolution audio files, such as FLAC, WAV, or other los...

faq.wiimhome.com

 

[Alexandru2705]

Ok, I'll try the room correction and also switch to optical cable, instead of RCA. Thank you.
On second thought: if connected by optical cable, won't the DAC in the Denon be used again, and the one in WiiM be bypassed? The main reason I bought the WiiM Ultra is for its ESS Sabre DAC.

Edit: sorry, I wrote the second part before reading your p.m. Thanks again.

 

[pieterv1]

On second thought: if connected by optical cable, won't the DAC in the Denon be used again, and the one in WiiM be bypassed? The main reason I bought the WiiM Ultra is for its ESS Sabre DAC.

Yes, then you'll be using the Denon's DAC again, but you seem to forget the important fact that your Denon is also digitising the analog RCA inputs. Seems to me that the best connection method to such AVR's is digital through optical, coaxial and HDMI. The RCA inputs are there for convenience in case you run out of options, but are best to be avoided.

The "Pure Direct" mode you refer to seems to free up a few resources used for video processing, eq etc, but it is unlikely this it'll provide a purely analog signal path.

In other words: if you have the WiiM connected with RCA, the audio will first be converted from analog to digital by the WiiM's (probably superior) DAC, then converted back from analog to digital by the Denon's ADC and eventually converted back from digital to analog by the Denon's DAC. So it makes total sense that the Denon sounds better if you play the files directly from there - you're skipping one stage of DA and AD conversion.

Theoretically, you should at least be able to match the sound quality by connecting the WiiM through optical - basically using it as a streaming transport - but the WiiM won't be able to show its full potential paired with your AVR unfortunately.

 

[slartibartfast]

Yes, then you'll be using the Denon's DAC again, but you seem to forget the important fact that your Denon is also digitising the analog RCA inputs. Seems to me that the best connection method to such AVR's is digital through optical, coaxial and HDMI. The RCA inputs are there for convenience in case you run out of options, but are best to be avoided.

The "Pure Direct" mode you refer to seems to free up a few resources used for video processing, eq etc, but it is unlikely this it'll provide a purely analog signal path.

In other words: if you have the WiiM connected with RCA, the audio will first be converted from analog to digital by the WiiM's (probably superior) DAC, then converted back from analog to digital by the Denon's ADC and eventually converted back from digital to analog by the Denon's DAC. So it makes total sense that the Denon sounds better if you play the files directly from there - you're skipping one stage of DA and AD conversion.

Theoretically, you should at least be able to match the sound quality by connecting the WiiM through optical - basically using it as a streaming transport - but the WiiM won't be able to show its full potential paired with your AVR unfortunately.

I wouldn't expect the Pure Direct mode to convert analog to digital since all EQ and tone controls are disabled.

 

[pieterv1]

I wouldn't expect the Pure Direct mode to convert analog to digital since all EQ and tone controls are disabled.

But wouldn't all of those be DSP based? And I don't think the $500 Denon of 2012 would have an analog preamp section and the means to (mechanically) switch the inputs from digital to purely analog.

 

[slartibartfast]

But wouldn't all of those be DSP based? And I don't think the $500 Denon of 2012 would have an analog preamp section and the means to (mechanically) switch the inputs from digital to purely analog.

They would be DSP based so the fact that they aren't available in Pure Direct mode means there is no need to digitise the analog input. An analog preamp isn't strictly necessary since most preamps now are really just source selectors with no gain. Only guessing though. If "Pure Direct" isn't straight through then they are playing fast and loose with the language

 

[Alexandru2705]

Thank you for the recommendations, slartibartfast, pieterv1, Ronnie D. I did run the room correction and it does seem to be an improvement. There is clearly more bass where/when it should be. The graph curve does look a bit nasty in two spots, but overall it follows the ideal line.

The thing is, this morning I was so displeased with the sound quality of the WiiM Ultra that I decided to return it and buy instead a Marantz PM6007. At first I'd just keep it listening to tv channels, then I'd buy the cheaper WiiM Pro (I think) mainly for the USB port, to be able to listen to my large collection of lossless FLAC files with symphonic music. Actually, I bought the WiiM Ultra because I wanted to have a (close enough) sound quality to that of a stereo amp - for less money But, as I said, I was clearly underwhelmed by it after listening. That is, before performing the room correction. Now I'm so-so towards returning the WiiM and buying a Marantz 6007. That amp will not have a room correction app, but I hope it won't matter that much, given the expected rise in sound quality. So, now I'm a bit undecided if to keep the order I did for the Marantz (it remains for Monday anyway, as they don't have it on stock anymore), or to cancel it.

I know WiiM also has an amp, but if I do decide to buy, I'd prefer going for a well known/verified good sounding amp (Marantz).
What do you think, will the sound of said Marantz (my room is 15 square meters, in a block of flats) will clearly supersede in sound quality that of the WiiM Ultra, or more like so-so?

If I appear out of topic on this thread with these questions, I can open another one, of course. Thank you for your kind help.

 

[Burnside]

… then I'd buy the cheaper WiiM Pro (I think) mainly for the USB port,

The Pro doesn’t have a USB port

 

[Alexandru2705]

The Pro doesn’t have a USB port

Right, I forgot about that. Looks like I'll have to either use the USB port on the back of the tv (unfortunately it's the only one and it's occupied by an external HDD for live recording tv channels...), or buy a USB hub. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Mr Ee]

The pm6007 is a fine amplifier. Well, that's assuming it's at least slightly better than my 6006.
I run a tv via optical into the 6006, and also a pro (via smsl su9 dac) into it. Does that really sound much different to the 6006 dac? Maybe not, but by far the main use of the pro and smsl su9 is on to an smsl sh9 for headphones. (The su9 outputs rca and balanced concurrently.)
This setup is in a 15m2 room too.
The marantz is very easily loud enough, and sounds good too with my Krix floorstanders.

It's been quite a while since I had the Ultra in there, analog into the 6006, but it sounded good.
Had the wiim amp ultra in there for a while, and that sounded good too.
Have also used both the ultra (analog out) and wiim amp ultra in my main hifi, and both sounded good.

Not sure what's going on with your ultra/denon combo, but it's seemingly not consistent with my experience of the ultra into various (stereo) amplifier / speaker combos!

 

[Mr Ee]

Here's another thought for you, after reading "I was clearly underwhelmed by it after listening. That is, before performing the room correction. Now I'm so-so towards returning the WiiM and buying a Marantz 6007"

When I first got a wiim amp pro and tried it instead of my marantz 6006 I was also very underwhelmed. Sounded awful.
Then I ran Room Correction (as it was called then) and it improved greatly.
Then I turned off room correction and it still sounded good; nothing like it had at first.
For a still completely unknown reason to me, that I've not had with any other wiim, something simply wasn't right out of the box.
What happens if you disable all eq, roomfit etc? Does it still sound as underwhelming as it first did, or just a little different from with roomfit enabled?

What speakers are you using?

Final thought - I implied it earlier, but imo the wiim amp ultra is a fine bit of kit, and it has the usb input you want.
I'm certain the 6007 will be good too, but they are quite different feature wise.

 

[Alexandru2705]

Hi, my speakers are MA BX2 BXC BXFX connected to Denon 2113 which connects to LG UR8100. And for two days I have the WiiM Ultra.
I thought about Marantz PM6007 after listening to the WiiM, but after running the room correction the sound got better (more bass). Interestingly, after modifying the eq (after hints from another member on this forum) - as I still didn't like the highs/mids, as not clear/sharp enough -, I got clearer mids/highs, but it seemed to me the lower frequencies receded in quality. I got another hint on messing with the eq graphic, trying to improve the bass, but I then got a worse sound overall, for some reason: muddy, muffled. After the last try (fourth) things improved though. Oddly enough, after then checking each saved eq setting, there appeared to be no difference between them, at least to my ears.

Anyhow, what I want is, of course, great sound, with not much money and, if possible, with some of the facilities WiiM offers. I looked this morning at WiiM AMP Ultra, and very much liked the specifications, with the exception of its very light weight, and very light W consuming. Sure, its not AB, but probably D ampification, but 50 W consumption, and 2.5 kg? You will say the final result in sound quality is what matters, and I agree - I see that you have it and you are rather pleased with it. Now I'm in doubt if to order (for WiiM Ultra replacement) the WiiM Pro Ultra, instead of Marantz 6007.

I looked a bit at a newer model of stereo receiver/amp from Marantz, too - forgot the name. There is also a stereo amp: Yamaha R N600A that I had in view a year ago. So I am open to other suggestions.
I primarily listen to symphonic music on lossless FLAC files, which I have on a USB stick - that's why a USB port is rather essential. But I guess it's also possible to put my FLAC collection on the phone and then use an app to integrate it to other type of system.

I will be back soon.
Thank you for your help.

 

[Mr Ee]

with the exception of its very light weight, and very light W consuming.

It does take a mind shift to think (realise) that such a small box can compete with more traditional large, heavy amps.

 

[Audioslave]

Yes, then you'll be using the Denon's DAC again, but you seem to forget the important fact that your Denon is also digitising the analog RCA inputs. Seems to me that the best connection method to such AVR's is digital through optical, coaxial and HDMI. The RCA inputs are there for convenience in case you run out of options, but are best to be avoided.

The "Pure Direct" mode you refer to seems to free up a few resources used for video processing, eq etc, but it is unlikely this it'll provide a purely analog signal path.

In other words: if you have the WiiM connected with RCA, the audio will first be converted from analog to digital by the WiiM's (probably superior) DAC, then converted back from analog to digital by the Denon's ADC and eventually converted back from digital to analog by the Denon's DAC. So it makes total sense that the Denon sounds better if you play the files directly from there - you're skipping one stage of DA and AD conversion.

Theoretically, you should at least be able to match the sound quality by connecting the WiiM through optical - basically using it as a streaming transport - but the WiiM won't be able to show its full potential paired with your AVR unfortunately.

This information is incorrect. Pure Direct plus analog RCA in from wiiM doesn't digitize anything, the RCAs from the WiiM are passed to the AVR via analog signal and then to the AVR amps or outboard amps via the Denon AVR without any kind of 'digitization'.

 

[pieterv1]

This information is incorrect. Pure Direct plus analog RCA in from wiiM doesn't digitize anything, the RCAs from the WiiM are passed to the AVR via analog signal and then to the AVR amps or outboard amps via the Denon AVR without any kind of 'digitization'.

The documentation about the AVR and the pure direct mode is pretty vague so I looked for a service manual. Indeed, the RCA inputs are not going through AD, but the running straight into a R2A15218FP audio controller IC which can definitely affect sound quality as well. It controls volume, can insert certain circuits which need ad/da conversation (like room correction, eq), control volume going to the amp boards etc...

So still far from ideal and definitely not a clean signal path compared to a simple power amp. All in all I think that a 12y old 7 ch AVR which was already on the cheap side back in its day doesn't do justice to the WiiM's state of the art performance.

 

[Audioslave]

The documentation about the AVR and the pure direct mode is pretty vague so I looked for a service manual. Indeed, the RCA inputs are not going through AD, but the running straight into a R2A15218FP audio controller IC which can definitely affect sound quality as well. It controls volume, can insert certain circuits which need ad/da conversation (like room correction, eq), control volume going to the amp boards etc...

So still far from ideal and definitely not a clean signal path compared to a simple power amp. All in all I think that a 12y old 7 ch AVR which was already on the cheap side back in its day doesn't do justice to the WiiM's state of the art performance.

Yes, passing the WiiM through a relatively entry level AVR will probably add more noise than a high end two channel preamp. That amount of noise may or may not be audible, but it's definitely not digitized in Direct or Pure Direct on any Denon AVR that I've ever heard of.

 

[Alexandru2705]

Thank you all for your replies, but I already returned the WiiM Ultra yesterday. I wanted to exchange it for Marantz PM6007, but they were unsure when, if ever, they will have it again in stock - so I just asked for the money back. If this amp is unavailable, I'll be looking at either Audiolab 6000A (still expensive here), or Rotel A11 Mk2. I'll have the to either use the LG UR8100 USB port, or buy another cheaper device that offer USB port.

 

[Alexandru2705]

It's true that from now on there is not a WiiM anymore to correspond to the title of this thread, but I dont"t exclude the possibility to still get one, after I'll buy a stereo amp and if I'll not be happy with the USB capability of my tv.

 

[pieterv1]

Just keep in mind that the Audiolab 6000A (mk2) and Rotel A11 MK2 probably have a very competitive DAC built-in and the 6000A MK2 even has HDMI ARC so it would probably make more sense to pair them with a WiiM Mini or WiiM Pro (connected digitally)

While you can perfectly connect the WiiM Ultra to either of those 2 integrated amplifiers, it can also act as a complete preamp, paired with a pure (and often very compact) power-amplifier. In other words: the WiiM Ultra can handle all the inputs, volume control & even power control. Paired with an amp with 12v trigger input, you'll have a fully automated setup

Just to give you an idea: the Fosi Audio v3 monoblocks are a very popular choice to pair with the Ultra - a set will set you back €270.