Hypothetical Setup Question

[s3igell]

I picked up a WiiM Pro Plus overnight via Amazon and set it up into my system. I have adjusted the setup as such:
Disconnected Topping D90 III Discrete from the DSPeaker Anti-Mode X2D's digital output and connected it to the WiiM Ultra's digital output (coax)
Disconnected the SVS 3000-Micro's LFE connection from the Anti-Mode X2D
Disconnected Anti-Mode X2D from WiiM Ultra, connected it to the WiiM Pro Plus, connected an SMSL SU-1 DAC to the X2D's output, connected the sub to the SU-1 in stereo RCA, reran room correction calibration.
Added the WiiM Pro Plus to my network, synced the included remote, set up a, "multiroom," group (well, it's the same room) with the WiiM Ultra
Turned on the High-Pass filter on the WiiM Ultra
Set the Low-Pass filter on the subwoofer to match
Used HouseCurve to level match the sub to the speakers

So far so good, sounds at least as good as before, if not better (the SU-1 is a better DAC than whatever is driving the LFE output of the Anti-Mode X2D). Surprising how easy it was to get the speakers and the sub aligned (just used HouseCurve to run repeated sweeps as I adjusted the phase setting in the SVS app).

I haven't had a chance to test lip sync yet with ARC input; will try later and come back. If it all works, I'm basically ready to add the second sub as soon as I can source a used/open box one in good condition for a decent price, and all I'd have to do is rerun the room calibration on the X2D, which is currently set to 0.2 mode.

-Ed

I don't see you mention it, and you were obviously focusing on other aspects of your setup, but...

You not only had left and right separated between two streamers and dacs, but also by two different brands of dac chips - AKM and ESS.
Did you notice any difference in coloration or presentation - left to right??

 

[gazza1101]

If I am not mistaken, the target curve I chose was Harman, which is steeper than my previous method (simply set sub volume a bit higher), but it sounds amazing—there is so much slam now with things like kick drums due to the combination of the steeper curve plus the impulse correction of the DIRAC Live correction. I find the high frequency portion curious as well. This was measured with UMIK-1 pointed up, using 90-degree calibration file. Just minutes prior to this sweep, I had run a sweep using the iPhone mic and it actually showed elevated response in the high frequencies. Of course I am inclined to believe that the iPhone mic is less accurate. What may be happening is that the iPhone mic compensation was still active as I plugged the UMIK-1 in mid-session. I shall take another sweep later when I get home, and make sure to use a fresh app session.

-Ed

I thought that facing the mic up was only recommended for surround sound not stereo?

 

[EddNog]

I don't see you mention it, and you were obviously focusing on other aspects of your setup, but...

You not only had left and right separated between two streamers and dacs, but also by two different brands of dac chips - AKM and ESS.
Did you notice any difference in coloration or presentation - left to right??

You seem confused on how this was set up; it wasn’t one streamer for left and one streamer for right, it was one streamer for the speakers (WiiM Ultra in stereo) and the other streamer for the subs (WiiM Pro Plus in stereo). Either way, that is no longer the case, as now it is a single preamp (Luxsin X9) feeding the speakers and the subs, each pair in stereo.

-Ed

 

[EddNog]

I thought that facing the mic up was only recommended for surround sound not stereo?

I tried both and made sure to use the appropriate calibration file in each case, and I felt the 90° calibration (vertical mic) was more in line with how the system actually sounds to my ears. Perhaps it partially has to do with the way the room/speakers are laid out?

-Ed

 

[gazza1101]

I tried both and made sure to use the appropriate calibration file in each case, and I felt the 90° calibration (vertical mic) was more in line with how the system actually sounds to my ears. Perhaps it partially has to do with the way the room/speakers are laid out?

-Ed

If it sounds better to you then awsome

 

[harkpabst]

I tried both and made sure to use the appropriate calibration file in each case, and I felt the 90° calibration (vertical mic) was more in line with how the system actually sounds to my ears. Perhaps it partially has to do with the way the room/speakers are laid out?

It shouldn't make much of a difference in the fist place (that's why there are separate calibrations for 0° and 90°).

But on the other hand the 0° calibration should simply be more accurate, since this is the one that's really created from a measurement. The 90° calibration is just mathematically retrieved from the 0° calibration.

 

[EddNog]

It shouldn't make much of a difference in the fist place (that's why there are separate calibrations for 0° and 90°).

But on the other hand the 0° calibration should simply be more accurate, since this is the one that's really created from a measurement. The 90° calibration is just mathematically retrieved from the 0° calibration.

I plan on rerunning the calibration sometime (so far only did one measurement from MLP and intend to redo with extra scans in other nearby spots) and I can certainly try that using the mic pointed forward with 0-degree file.

-Ed

 

[EddNog]

Okay so this evening my miniDSP Flex came in. I upgraded it to DIRAC Live and reran calibration; this time I made slight adjustments to the curve during filter tuning. Here are the combined, left, and right sweeps. Mic is at 0° for calibration and HouseCurve sweeps afterwards:




One of my goals was also to see if miniDSP Flex’s implementation of DIRAC Live is as effective as that of the Mac version. The results seem just as good, so I will be offloading this work to miniDSP, and potentially considering using a WiiM streamer as my source again since my laptop is no longer needed for performing DIRAC.

-Ed

 

[slartibartfast]

Okay so this evening my miniDSP Flex came in. I upgraded it to DIRAC Live and reran calibration; this time I made slight adjustments to the curve during filter tuning. Here are the combined, left, and right sweeps. Mic is at 0° for calibration and HouseCurve sweeps afterwards:
View attachment 23624
View attachment 23625
View attachment 23626

One of my goals was also to see if miniDSP Flex’s implementation of DIRAC Live is as effective as that of the Mac version. The results seem just as good, so I will be offloading this work to miniDSP, and potentially considering using a WiiM streamer as my source again since my laptop is no longer needed for performing DIRAC.

-Ed

I'm glad to see it isn't just me that gets dips in the combined response between 250Hz and 500Hz that aren't present in the individual responses.

 

[EddNog]

I'm glad to see it isn't just me that gets dips in the combined response between 250Hz and 500Hz that aren't present in the individual responses.

It makes sense that there will be dips and boosts that only appear in the combined response as any time you have two sound sources, there will be interactive effects between them that don’t exist when only one sound source is active. This is why it becomes more and more challenging to cleanly combine drivers on multiway/multidriver speakers compared to single driver, especially as the drivers get farther and farther apart. This is also why I prefer coaxial/point source speaker designs, which reduce these effects.

-Ed

 

[slartibartfast]

It makes sense that there will be dips and boosts that only appear in the combined response as any time you have two sound sources, there will be interactive effects between them that don’t exist when only one sound source is active. This is why it becomes more and more challenging to cleanly combine drivers on multiway/multidriver speakers compared to single driver, especially as the drivers get farther and farther apart. This is also why I prefer coaxial/point source speaker designs, which reduce these effects.

-Ed

In REW I can see the phase shift causing the dip but apart from knowing it is the room causing it I still haven't narrowed it down to a particular feature of the room. It isn't the TV or the coffee table.

 

[EddNog]

Alrighty, the WiiM Ultra is back in!



-Ed

 

[EddNog]

I’ve been learning a lot these past couple of weeks and one major thing I learned is that room correction above 300Hz is absolute folly. What looks great in a sweep sounds terrible. Having continued to study what experts recommend, I dialed the DIRAC correction range to only correct 23Hz-300Hz and witnessed a vast improvement in transparency compared to doing full-range correction. It seems that trying to correct frequencies above 300Hz results in unnatural phase and impulse issues, despite neutral frequency response, and that really messes up imaging and soundstage perception (not to mention actual transparency). However, in ceasing correction of higher frequencies, it forced me to fall back on the method of adjusting my speaker placement to address weaknesses in my frequency response, and I realized the reason for the big, wide dip in my frequency response around 200-280Hz was due to boundary cancellation with the back wall, so I moved the speakers forward into the room several inches, adjusted the delay of the speakers to compensate, and recalibrated DIRAC. Oh I also installed IsoAcoustics ISO-155 isolation stands under my subs. The end result is stunningly symmetrical sweeps—consider the fact that the left speaker and sub are about 6’ from the left wall and the right speaker and sub are about 12’ from the right wall, yet I have left, right, and combined sweeps looking this good (with DIRAC only correcting from 23-300Hz:
Left sweep:

Right sweep:

Combined sweep:


Note that left sweep is taken with mic 4” left of center, right sweep is taken with mic 4” right of center, and combined is taken from dead center.

And now I have one last experimental stage left, which I am saving as a big surprise for next week! That being said, as for the moment, I’ve never heard better sound out of this system!

-Ed

 

[EddNog]

I suppose Saturday doesn’t count as next week, but I am just too excited for this…

I went full 2.2.1 at last. Before I had the 3000 Micros, I had an SB-3000, and it had more authority, more extension…more slam. I loved the improved imaging from the stereo 3000 Micros (and my dad super duper loves how his system now sounds with the SB-3000 reinforcing his Magnepan LRS+s), but I was missing that last piece of bottom-end grunt, since the 3000 Micros just can’t hit hard in the deep end of things. Seeing as I now use a miniDSP for DIRAC Live anyway, and the separate X9 downstream for managing the 2.2 array, I decided to jam in an SVS PC-2000 Pro to get that infrasonic joy back. So today, it finally came in, and I used the miniDSP to integrate it. It crosses over to the 3000 Minis at 60Hz with a 36dB/Octave slope. The 3000 Minis still cross over to the LS50 Metas at 160Hz with a 30dB/Octave slope. Everything is time aligned and then DIRAC Live corrects from 16-300Hz. Left (taken 3” left of center), right (taken 3” right of center), and combined (taken dead center) sweeps:




270Hz and 540Hz dips are unavoidable (1st and 2nd order ceiling reflections and I can’t treat the ceiling due to recessed lighting).

Please also excuse the clearly well-lived-in appearance of my shared listening space:




-Ed

 

[EddNog]

Further fine-tuning of subwoofer DSP PEQs (which have more headroom and won’t suffer digital clipping since they’re taking a analog inputs and have quite a bit of negative regain) combined with adjusting the lower crossover up to 70Hz, plus changing the DIRAC Live room correction to cover 15-1800Hz has resulted in nice improvements. I will likely leave it here for a while:




-Ed

 

[slartibartfast]

Further fine-tuning of subwoofer DSP PEQs (which have more headroom and won’t suffer digital clipping since they’re taking a analog inputs and have quite a bit of negative regain) combined with adjusting the lower crossover up to 70Hz, plus changing the DIRAC Live room correction to cover 15-1800Hz has resulted in nice improvements. I will likely leave it here for a while:
View attachment 24420
View attachment 24421
View attachment 24422

-Ed

A few days ago "room correction above 300Hz is absolute folly". You changed your mind then?

 

[EddNog]

A few days ago "room correction above 300Hz is absolute folly". You changed your mind then?

I think the problem was more with going over 2KHz, but really at the end of the day everything is a compromise. This appears to be helping a lot with the ceiling reflections, which, at least in the graphs, looked quite bad. I may yet change it back, but that’s part of why I figure it is best if I just leave it for a week or two before cutting correction back to 700Hz or 300Hz again to compare. Need proper aural memory to do a fair comparison.

-Ed

 

[Wiimer]

A few days ago "room correction above 300Hz is absolute folly". You changed your mind then?

I thought so too, but didn't have the courage to say it out loud

 

[EddNog]

I thought so too, but didn't have the courage to say it out loud

A few days ago "room correction above 300Hz is absolute folly". You changed your mind then?

Out of curiosity, what range are you guys currently employing?

-Ed

 

[slartibartfast]

Out of curiosity, what range are you guys currently employing?

-Ed

20-600Hz for me. Individual channel, B&K target. Moving microphone method in REW since individual channel MMM isn't available yet in the WiiM app.