Optical cables dont fit

[jensende]

Hi

I have now two Wiim Minis and they dont accept a bit more expensive oprical cables the simply just fall out and dont snap in to place.

I have now tried with three different ones:

Supra Zac
Chord C-lite optical
Atlas Element Optical

None of these snap in to place (the work with the rest of the equipment at home).

The supplied cable obibously works fine but I would like to have a better optical cable.

What do you guys use? suggest? Is there a high quality optical cable that fits ?

Regards
Jens

 

[steadyshot]

Do you think that a binary content of the file will degrade when you read the data from the hard disk into the memory and save it back? There is a kind of conversion involved in it as well.

The big mistake is thinking about digital data directly through the analog form. We have thresholds to distinguish voltage levels. If voltage below 0.5v is a logic zero and above is logic one, it doesn't matter if voltage is 0.7v or 0.8v to still get a correct binary value. If a receiver gets a degraded signal from 0.8v to 0.6v it still can convert it to binary 1. And it will transmit it back on the level 0.8v after conversion from the abstract digital form to the real analog form.

I found this from the Wireworld’s (manufacturer) site.

“It's not just 1's and 0's, it's the timing!
There is a fundamental difference between the transfer of computer data and digital audio signals. Computers are able to transfer digital data without loss, because the data moves in the robust form of blocks, which do not depend on specific timing between the sending and receiving devices. However, digital audio signals are continuous streams of data, which are quite fragile, since the digital processor must remain perfectly locked onto the timing of the signal to avoid data losses.

The Limitations of digital audio processors and cables create timing errors known as jitter, which remove portions of the audio signal and replace them with noise and distortion. Cables tend to round off the square waveforms of the signal, making them less clear to the processor, thus increasing jitter. This rounding effect varies greatly among cables and a truly superior digital audio cable can make great improvements in sound quality.”

 

[Brantome]

Well, they would say that, wouldn’t they? Let the jitter wars begin (again) - over to you @onlyoneme

 

[steadyshot]

Well, they would say that, wouldn’t they? Let the jitter wars begin - over to you @onlyoneme

Yes of course they can exacerbate an issue to sell. I am posting this to see arguments.

I have read various sources on the topic presenting for instance measurements of digital coaxial VS optical indicating that coaxial levels of jitter are noticeably lower ( from pico second to nano second scale differential). Is this audible someone could say? Prove that it is not…

It also indicates that in digital domain the signal is not always passed in its initial “square” waveform state due to wrong interpretation of the signal from the dac. So maybe if the square becomes a zig zag it will interpret a 0 as 1 or vice versa. Maybe there is a threshold after which this alteration of the waveform causes this wrong “read” by the dac.

 

[pieterv1]

I found this from the Wireworld’s (manufacturer) site.

“It's not just 1's and 0's, it's the timing!
There is a fundamental difference between the transfer of computer data and digital audio signals. Computers are able to transfer digital data without loss, because the data moves in the robust form of blocks, which do not depend on specific timing between the sending and receiving devices. However, digital audio signals are continuous streams of data, which are quite fragile, since the digital processor must remain perfectly locked onto the timing of the signal to avoid data losses.

The Limitations of digital audio processors and cables create timing errors known as jitter, which remove portions of the audio signal and replace them with noise and distortion. Cables tend to round off the square waveforms of the signal, making them less clear to the processor, thus increasing jitter. This rounding effect varies greatly among cables and a truly superior digital audio cable can make great improvements in sound quality.”

Yes it's true that the binary info is not going to be sent trough as perfect squares over toslink/coax cables since the actual medium of those cables is of analog nature (light, voltage).

The bits of the digital info sent through those cables are read with a certain threshold above and below 0v so it shouldn't really matter if the signal is perfectly square.

There are other systems in place to filter out noise as well like phased locked loop. Simply put: the sampling frequency at the input of the DAC is matched to the frequency of the incoming signal and doing so, it'll automatically filter out any noise at higher frequencies.

The main takeaway is that it's impossible to have sonic differences like a more organic, fuller or clearer sound by changing a digital cable... If a digital cable is not up to the task, you'll hear digital artifacts like pops or static.

Going to share this again, it's worth a watch! Amir's explanations are very interesting! Especially the spdif part around 12:30 Technical, but still very clear!

 

[steadyshot]

I will watch the video carefully but let’s not post false analogies in the first place because we lose credibility

 

[onlyoneme]

I found this from the Wireworld’s (manufacturer) site.

“It's not just 1's and 0's, it's the timing!
There is a fundamental difference between the transfer of computer data and digital audio signals. Computers are able to transfer digital data without loss, because the data moves in the robust form of blocks, which do not depend on specific timing between the sending and receiving devices. However, digital audio signals are continuous streams of data, which are quite fragile, since the digital processor must remain perfectly locked onto the timing of the signal to avoid data losses.

The Limitations of digital audio processors and cables create timing errors known as jitter, which remove portions of the audio signal and replace them with noise and distortion. Cables tend to round off the square waveforms of the signal, making them less clear to the processor, thus increasing jitter. This rounding effect varies greatly among cables and a truly superior digital audio cable can make great improvements in sound quality.”

Yes, it's also the timing. The biggest difference here is being isochronous without a possibility to resend data when an error occurs, which is possible in the packet communication. But it doesn't change the principles of decoding the analog carrier into digital data which provides an ability to interpret correctly even the degraded signal as long as it's within the acceptable threshold range. You can see that on the eye-patterns: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_pattern
Modern DACs are capable of rejecting the incoming signal jitter to get a bit-perfect audio data stream. It can be proven anytime. Even very cheap toslink-to-usb converters are able to recover the clock from the spdif stream to get the unaltered audio stream.

 

[Mr Ee]

I'm kind of struggling to understand this too.
Been reading / watching lots on this subject the past couple of days, and different opinions are rife!
The scientist in me can clearly comprehend why (analog) digital signal degradation would need to be pretty severe before causing highs and lows to be ambiguous, and why many assert that such signals pretty much either work or don't.
Seems to be evidence of that on this forum, with some people's optical cables simply not working with 192kHz music files.

Yet I'm struggling to reconcile that with my own experience from a (non-wiim) streamer's digital coax (not optical) out to my amp/dac.
I swapped out one "analog" cable for another "analog" cable and immediately heard a significant difference.
By "analog", I mean that both cables were nominally for use as analog rca interconnects.
Bias? Maybe.
Noise from the coax entering the amp and passing on through to the output stage? Different levels of noise between the two cables? Maybe.
Guess I need to try it again.

I generally come back to the same conclusion though - it really doesn't matter what I think I do / do not understand; happiness is in the ear, and wallet, of the listener.

 

[onlyoneme]

I have read various sources on the topic presenting for instance measurements of digital coaxial VS optical indicating that coaxial levels of jitter are noticeably lower ( from pico second to nano second scale differential). Is this audible someone could say? Prove that it is not…

Can you provide me such an example? A jitter comparison for 1 m long optical vs coaxial cable?
A cycle time of the spdif carrier for 192 kHz audio sample rate is about 80 ns. A rise time is 10-25 ns. What is the timing deviation visible as the jitter and induced by the cable, coax vs optical?

 

[steadyshot]

Can you provide me such an example? A jitter comparison for 1 m long optical vs coaxial cable?
A cycle time of the spdif carrier for 192 kHz audio sample rate is about 80 ns. A rise time is 10-25 ns. What is the timing deviation visible as the jitter and induced by the cable, coax vs optical?

The Well-Tempered Computer

 

[onlyoneme]

The Well-Tempered Computer

What exactly has been measured here and how?
It looks like a comparison of output - cable - input paths, not cables comparison.

"Notice the difference between the jitter from the coaxial output and the Toslink output."

BTW, the highest "jitter" there was 2 ns. A rise time of a square wave in the spdif transfer can be even 10 times longer...

 

[onlyoneme]

Just compare a marked 2.374 ns time period with the width of the unit interval.

 

[Brantome]

Discussion of jitter was done to death on the Wiim Mini thread on AudioScienceReview, where my take on the discussion was as expressed in the first result on this search viz. “Toslink jitter will be a non issue with any competent DAC” and as expressed by @onlyoneme above: “Modern DACs are capable of rejecting the incoming signal jitter to get a bit-perfect audio data stream”, thereby nullifying any perceived audible differences between toslink cables.

Search results for query: Jitter

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[merifon]

Bias? Maybe...

To catch such small differences, you'd have to instantly switch from one object to another. Auditory memory is so weak that a few second intervals distort judgments. In those few seconds, the earth travels for thousands of miles in space, the blood and the atmospheric pressure have changed and even I am no longer the same person as before... ;-)

 

[Mr Ee]

To catch such small differences, you'd have to instantly switch from one object to another. Auditory memory is so weak that a few second intervals distort judgments. In those few seconds, the earth travels for thousands of miles in space, the blood and the atmospheric pressure have changed and even I am no longer the same person as before... ;-)

This wasn't a small difference, and to carry on with the story...

Seeing as the analog cable switch yielded such improvements, I thought I'd try a proper digital cable rather than the analog rca I had lying around.
So I bought, 2nd hand, a digital coax interconnect that cost about as much, 2nd hand, as a pro costs new.

And when I plugged that bad boy in...
No difference at all.

 

[Mrz7kN]

I found this from the Wireworld’s (manufacturer) site.

“It's not just 1's and 0's, it's the timing!
There is a fundamental difference between the transfer of computer data and digital audio signals. Computers are able to transfer digital data without loss, because the data moves in the robust form of blocks, which do not depend on specific timing between the sending and receiving devices. However, digital audio signals are continuous streams of data, which are quite fragile, since the digital processor must remain perfectly locked onto the timing of the signal to avoid data losses.

The Limitations of digital audio processors and cables create timing errors known as jitter, which remove portions of the audio signal and replace them with noise and distortion. Cables tend to round off the square waveforms of the signal, making them less clear to the processor, thus increasing jitter. This rounding effect varies greatly among cables and a truly superior digital audio cable can make great improvements in sound quality.”

Sure....next iam going to ask my ISP to replace a couple of their cables within their infrastructure ;-)

 

[Hiphiman]

Going back to the original question, I bought a new optical cable, not because I have any philosophical views on whether the WiiM-supplied cable was inferior to anything else, but simply because I needed a longer one. The Amazon Basics version I bought fits perfectly and works at 24/192 flawlessly into my DAC, so others can add that to their list of possible options.

Oh, and now it is in place and working I have no plans to ever disconnect it.

 

[steadyshot]

Hi

I have now two Wiim Minis and they dont accept a bit more expensive oprical cables the simply just fall out and dont snap in to place.

I have now tried with three different ones:

Supra Zac
Chord C-lite optical
Atlas Element Optical

None of these snap in to place (the work with the rest of the equipment at home).

The supplied cable obibously works fine but I would like to have a better optical cable.

What do you guys use? suggest? Is there a high quality optical cable that fits ?

Regards
Jens

I have tried to test with a cheaper better cable, audioquest pearl. Indeed, while it was difficult to remove original cable from spdif port, the audioquest pearl can be easily removed from wiim spdif port and it does not click in place like the original cable did. On my amp side it fits tightly.

But I have observed that the size of the plastic shape connector of toslink is bigger than that of the stock cable. Therefore stock cable connector is not full size.

I do not know if I accidentally damaged the optical port of the wiim mini and now it is looser than before but even wiggling around the audioquest cable into the wiim port does not seem to ensure a very tight fit as before. Is this normal?

Regarding sound. I have tested it yesterday. I did not notice some noise/static when changing tracks as I did before and neither I have encountered occassional glitches which I have attributed maybe to issues of airplay 2 (i use only apple music). I think high frequencies sound smoother and the sound is kind of calmer. There is a difference in sound and with this cable wimm operates very smoothly.

 

[onlyoneme]

Minis, especially new batches with a black spdif port cover, will have issues with bigger plugs. The original cable has narrow plugs. It's quite obvious when you compare with the Pro's socket:



The shape of the Mini case around the socket seems to cause some problems with a good cable fit if the plug is not narrow enough:




It looks to me that the plug must be fitted deeper to get a proper lock when comparing with old Mini batches:

 

[steadyshot]

Minis, especially new batches with a black spdif port cover, will have issues with bigger plugs. The original cable has narrow plugs. It's quite obvious when you compare with the Pro's socket:

View attachment 761

The shape of the Mini case around the socket seems to cause some problems with a good cable fit if the plug is not narrow enough:

View attachment 762


It looks to me that the plug must be fitted deeper to get a proper lock when comparing with old Mini batches:
View attachment 763

Thanks for your answer! I have to get back home to check , but I think it is a gray cover. I hope it will stay in place until I change the streamer eventually.

 

[DeepSpace57]

any update guys?

My supra Toslink cable does not fit; actually, unlike on my DAC, I cannot hear 'click' sound on the connection of Wiim Mini. I do not have any issue with the provided cable.

I am not sure whether the problem comes from the arc shape of Wiim Mini's chassis? Does any Pro user here have the same problem as ours?