Poll: Ultra with external DAC

[dangermouse]

I never tried the analog output of the Ultra. I trusted the reputable online reviewers who claims there is a noticeable difference.
My signal chain includes a minidsp which then goes into the J3. I always intended the Ultra to be a digital streamer only.

I always trust my ears, rather than 'reputable' online reviewers.

 

[hgo58]

I always trust my ears, rather than 'reputable' online reviewers.

For some reason I don't understand why a lot of people think it's necessary to add many devices into the signal chain. Not realising that each device will add distortion and noise of some sort.

 

[BowsAndArrows]

entering the discussion a bit late. sorry if i missed something...

@Bill Mac i think what @manyung1987 was alluding to with the "the articulation and air feelings" was the "realness" of the sound. just imagine you have a neighbour a couple doors down just blaring a saxophone at full volume, and you happen to hear it - can you not almost always tell if it's somebody playing music on their stereo vs playing a real instrument?? there's a sort of "weight" and presence and clear localisation to the sound of a real instrument that is kind of unmistakable. it's this feeling that has turned into the audiophool meme "my wife heard a clear improvement from the kitchen" imo

we can all easily tell the difference between playing back a recording vs hearing the real instrument live - but it's hard to articulate... but if you want objective things you can look for - one reliable one for me is off-axis performance as measured by ear. so just make a change in your system, play a song that you really like, start moving more and more off axis - and just try and notice how the details start to fade. many changes i've made in my system that i kept were improving the "realness" of the sound - especially when you listen off-axis, or yes, from the other room for example, the ability to maintain the depth in imaging/stereo separation, even when quite far from the ideal listening spot...

but i'm also curious - if you claim that what we're on about is audiophile nonsense... (no offence taken btw - everyone here will tell you - i own the snake oil badge with pride ) why did you purchase a relatively expensive denafrips DAC when the ASR type crowd would claim there are DACs half the cost with equal "transparency" or whatever terms they use "differences below the audible threshold" etc. you know what i mean..? do you notice differences in SQ? or did you just purchase it for other features, connectivity, convenience, build quality, looks?

 

[hgo58]

entering the discussion a bit late. sorry if i missed something...

@Bill Mac i think what @manyung1987 was alluding to with the "the articulation and air feelings" was the "realness" of the sound. just imagine you have a neighbour a couple doors down just blaring a saxophone at full volume, and you happen to hear it - can you not almost always tell if it's somebody playing music on their stereo vs playing a real instrument?? there's a sort of "weight" and presence and clear localisation to the sound of a real instrument that is kind of unmistakable. it's this feeling that has turned into the audiophool meme "my wife heard a clear improvement from the kitchen" imo

we can all easily tell the difference between playing back a recording vs hearing the real instrument live - but it's hard to articulate... but if you want objective things you can look for - one reliable one for me is off-axis performance as measured by ear. so just make a change in your system, play a song that you really like, start moving more and more off axis - and just try and notice how the details start to fade. many changes i've made in my system that i kept were improving the "realness" of the sound - especially when you listen off-axis, or yes, from the other room for example, the ability to maintain the depth in imaging/stereo separation, even when quite far from the ideal listening spot...

but i'm also curious - if you claim that what we're on about is audiophile nonsense... (no offence taken btw - everyone here will tell you - i own the snake oil badge with pride ) why did you purchase a relatively expensive denafrips DAC when the ASR type crowd would claim there are DACs half the cost with equal "transparency" or whatever terms they use "differences below the audible threshold" etc. you know what i mean..? do you notice differences in SQ? or did you just purchase it for other features, connectivity, convenience, build quality, looks?

It's fine to strive for the optimal sound. I do myself. The thing is that it's often the wrong thing people are looking at and often it looks like to me, that people think that the more it cost the better sound.

You are completely right about the off-axis. This where you hear the difference between speakers and rooms.

 

[BowsAndArrows]

It's fine to strive for the optimal sound. I do myself. The thing is that it's often the wrong thing people are looking at and often it looks like to me, that people think that the more it cost the better sound.

You are completely right about the off-axis. This where you hear the difference between speakers and rooms.

i agree to an extent. but part of the fun of the hobby for me is experimenting and sharing experiences with others... some throw their hands up and say "just shutup and listen to what you like" but there are some of us that are more willing to try things out.

 

[harkpabst]

Those of us who are sure that cable risers are scam will still have to raise their voice to make it a balanced discussion.

It's simply not the same as adding yet another PSU to your Naim gear.

 

[Bill Mac]

For some reason I don't understand why a lot of people think it's necessary to add many devices into the signal chain. Not realising that each device will add distortion and noise of some sort.

Not sure if you are referring to adding an external DAC as a device that will add distortion or noise. I can firmly state that the addition of a Denafrips Pontus 15 DAC between my Ultra and Yamaha A-S1100 amp that there is no audible noise or distortion.

 

[hgo58]

Not sure if you are referring to adding an external DAC as a device that will add distortion or noise. I can firmly state that the addition of a Denafrips Pontus 15 DAC between my Ultra and Yamaha A-S1100 amp that there is no audible noise or distortion.

So why adding it? If it's sound better than the WiiM DAC it could very well be due to distortion, just as we know it from tube amplifiers.

My comment was however mostly to those who add a DDC or another level of pre-amp.

 

[onlyoneme]

For some reason I don't understand why a lot of people think it's necessary to add many devices into the signal chain. Not realising that each device will add distortion and noise of some sort.

Not necessarily true, especially in the digital domain when additional devices may improve quality of the signal.

 

[hgo58]

Not necessarily true, especially in the digital domain when additional devices may improve quality of the signal.

Every time you transform the digital data you will introduce some kind of (harmonic or phase) distortion. That be EQ or re-clocking. Usually you cannot hear it but it's there.

 

[onlyoneme]

Every time you transform the digital data you will introduce some kind of (harmonic or phase) distortion. That be EQ or re-clocking. Usually you cannot hear it but it's there.

I said nothing about transforming the digital data and I didn't mean it at all.

 

[onlyoneme]

re-clocking

Reclocking may alter the digital data or may not. Usually it does not happen in case of DDCs.

 

[hgo58]

Reclocking may alter the digital data or may not. Usually it does not happen in case of DDCs.

So what is the point of using a DDC? Jitter has not been an issue since the 1980. All modern designs has very low and non-audible jitter. If the DAC connected from the DDC is so bad in its internal clock I would not use it anyway.

Teach me

 

[onlyoneme]

So what is the point of using a DDC? Jitter has not been an issue since the 1980. All modern designs has very low and non-audible jitter. If the DAC connected from the DDC is so bad in its internal clock I would not use it anyway.

Teach me

Jitter, which is still an issue in some setups, better handling of the electric noise, ability to recreate the signal which may be of the higher quality than the source one, willingness to choose a better suited digital input if the source lacks an appropriate output.

 

[BowsAndArrows]

So what is the point of using a DDC? Jitter has not been an issue since the 1980. All modern designs has very low and non-audible jitter. If the DAC connected from the DDC is so bad in its internal clock I would not use it anyway.

Teach me

goldensound on youtube goes into it in this video.

 

[hgo58]

better handling of the electric noise, ability to recreate the signal which may be of the higher quality than the source one, willingness to choose a better suited digital input if the source lacks an appropriate output.

Sounds to me as excuses for buying more equipment That is ok.

Jitter, which is still an issue in some setups,

Maybe better read this:

Audio Electronics: Is Digital Jitter Really a Problem?

Since the dawn of the digital era decades ago, the timing error known as "jitter" in A/D/A converters has been accused of harming audio fidelity. Some people claim that jitter adds audible distortion and noise, affects bass fullness, and even harms stereo imaging width and depth. This article...

audioxpress.com

 

[onlyoneme]

Sounds to me as excuses for buying more equipment That is ok.

Sounds to me that you are unable to imagine perspectives other than your own.
Let me give you an example: I need to be able to use test signals directly from the REW generator on the WiiM Pro. My PC has no toslink output. Which kind of the DDC I can use to fulfill my expectations?

 

[onlyoneme]

Maybe better read this:

I don't need it.

 

[BowsAndArrows]

Sounds to me as excuses for buying more equipment That is ok.

Maybe better read this:

Audio Electronics: Is Digital Jitter Really a Problem?

Since the dawn of the digital era decades ago, the timing error known as "jitter" in A/D/A converters has been accused of harming audio fidelity. Some people claim that jitter adds audible distortion and noise, affects bass fullness, and even harms stereo imaging width and depth. This article...

audioxpress.com

hey, you're the one that asked for references!

i've read that line of thinking many times but thanks for sharing anyways.

 

[slartibartfast]

Sounds to me that you are unable to imagine perspectives other than your own.
Let me give you an example: I need to be able to use test signals directly from the REW generator on the WiiM Pro. My PC has no toslink output. Which kind of the DDC I can use to fulfill my expectations?

For REW I just download REW generated sweep tones and play them from my server.