Pro+, Pro, Mini digital streaming

[steadyshot]

Since you said "measurably", what measurements do you have ? Thanks.

I am with onlyoneme here. Do not use the RME dac to test the jitter output.

 

[VintageFlanker]

I am with onlyoneme here. Do not use the RME dac to test the jitter output.

Why so?

Since you said "perform, measure (...) the same", what measurements of the raw signal on the toslink output do you have ? Thanks.

You know perfectly what I have, @onlyoneme . We could discuss forever about the meaning of "the same". Consider this, instead : "the same, or so marginal differences that it would be absolutely impossible, in any shape or form, that one single human on Earth would be able to hear it". And you obviously know that nor the WiiM Mini, or the WiiM Pro would produce any audible difference through Toslink on whatever DAC on the market by today.

 

[onlyoneme]

You know perfectly what I have

I guess I know. That's why I notice the lack of mentioned measurements.

We could discuss forever about the meaning of "the same". Consider this, instead : "the same, or so marginal differences that it would be absolutely impossible, in any shape or form, that one single human on Earth would be able to hear it".

You said "perform, measure and sound 100% the same". Your explanation may justify using the word "sound" because it relies on people's ability to hear, but not "perform" or "measure."

And you obviously know that nor the WiiM Mini, or the WiiM Pro would produce any audible difference through Toslink on whatever DAC on the market by today.

I doubt it's true, at least measurable differences are obvious. Since you don't have any measurements that would indicate the same or at least very similar quality of the output signal on toslink, I would call this an unjustified conclusion.

 

[Griff]

I can understand that in different circumstances and setups people will/may find differences. I can also get that if the device goes under load , using peq for example, the mini's processor may be have to work harder than the Pro's and maybe that possibly could have some effect on the audio processing. The bit I struggle with in the review is that the reviewer found the Pro was so good and the mini was so bad........

 

[TheLastMan]

It is an interesting video because it attempts to answer the question most of us will likely have asked ourselves at some point, namely, if a streamer’s digital output is bit-perfect and fed into an external DAC, from a purely sound quality perspective is there any point in considering an expensive streamer over a cheaper one? All the streamer comparison articles I can recall have only concentrated on line-out SQ, so one that just compares the digital domains is to be welcomed.
However, like others here, I am surprised by Passion for Sound’s conclusion but that in itself is probably no reason to just dismiss his claims. The question is a really important one, both from a general (almost philosophical) perspective and from the specific viewpoint of the WiiM family.
As a long-standing Mini user who is happy with its digital output, I am not in a position to compare with other WiiM digital outputs and so cannot comment myself. Nonetheless, dispassionately confirming or refuting Passion for Sound’s conclusion is something of a priority for everyone who enjoys streaming.

If the Mini can output at the maximum bit rate of the service you are using, then there will be no difference in sound quality between it and even a £2,000+ device if you are just using it as a streamer. If the processor struggled to keep up, then that would manifest itself in glitchy playback with drop-outs and pauses, not a generalised reduction in sound quality.

I bought the Pro rather than the mini mainly because it has Chromecast which enables me to cast from the classical music service Idagio at its maximum 24/44.1 resolution.

I have it feeding a Chord Qutest / M Scaler combination. Yep, a £150 streamer feeding a £4,700 DAC! And it sounds magnificent. I could afford a more expensive streamer if I wanted, but none offered anything more than I get with the WiiM.

The important things that a streamer must have for me are:
1. All the streaming services I want. In my case that is Amazon Music Unlimited, Radio Paradise and Idagio (via Chromecast). The fact that it has Squeezeplay as well means I can continue to use my Raspberry Pi LMS server for its brilliant BBC Sounds implementation (better than the BBC's own app!) and LMS streaming from my NAS, which is better than DLNA. The WiiM ticks all the boxes for me on that front.
2. The ability to support lossless music at the highest bitrates offered by the streaming services. It does that fine, coping with FLAC from Amazon at 24/192.
3. A choice of digital outputs (coax / toslink)
4. Good support and updates. WiiM is better at that than any other streamer I have looked at.
5. A decent control app
A bonus for me is the Toslink input, which I use to pass the TV signal through to the M Scaler, which only has two Toslink inputs. I need three (CD player, WiiM Pro and TV). Rob Watts, designer of the M Scaler, recommends Toslink optical for all inputs as they cannot transmit any electrical noise.

I looked very closely at the Bluesound Node which is more substantial from a hardware point of view. On the plus side it has native support for Idagio, but it lacks the Squeezeplay integration which, for me, was a major plus for the WiiM. It is also x2.5 the price, and there is no point in spending money if you don't have to.

I briefly had a Sonos Connect which had all the music services, including Idagio, but no high-res support - everything is down-sampled to 16/44.1. What is the point of that? Wasting processor resources to make the resolution less good than it was in the first place - daft.

All in all very happy with the WiiM so far - certainly no issues with sound quality. The limit on that front will be the DAC you use it with.

 

[TheLastMan]

..
Last night I watched a video by YouTube reviewer Passion for Sound. I find him to be very thorough. He claims the Pro+ and Pro far outshine the Mini when they are used only as a digital streamer. He believes it is down to the Quad Core used in the two Pros vs the Dual Core used in the Mini and probably other circuitry enhancements in the Pros.

For those that have both and use them as a digital streamer only, what say you? Thanks.
..

I have just watched the Passion for Sound video, a reviewer I usually respect. He is absolutely convinced that the digital output from the WiiM mini is much poorer than from the Pro, which is a bit of a mystery and surprises me.

If it actually is the case, then the output from the mini cannot be "bit perfect". In other words, it must be down-sampled in some way. That would be VERY surprising, and I am sure WiiM would deny it was the case. The only other possibility is that the Toslink optical output is flawed in some way.

I am highly tempted to go and get a mini and try the test for myself! I am interested that he is going to try a ridiculously expensive streamer and compare it to the WiiMs, I will be interested to watch that too.

I have a Cambridge CXC CD transport (no internal DAC) feeding into the M Scaler and Qutest using a Toslink connection. Technically that should be bit perfect. If the output from the WiiM Pro is also bit perfect, then there should be no discernible difference in sound quality between the two. I will definitely be trying that with the same recording on CD vs WiiM. I will report back...

 

[Maurizio]

I completely agree with @TheLastMan . There's so much difference from Mini and Pro that I have connected my new Topping D70 Pro Sabre, far away from the 4000 buks of the guy, do you know where? To my Mini, and I have the Pro also.
Why? More easy to use the cables that antes connected a different DAC

 

[Brantome]

I seem to recall @onlyoneme and others testing and proving that the WiiM Mini was bit perfect on its digital outputs by playing a test file thru to their RME DAC which compared the stream it received to the test file and pronounced it identical, apart from some fade in which I’m not sure is still there.

 

[Hughmoz]

..
I hear ya! I have three mini’s and am very pleased with the sound quality. I generally like his videos but found this particular one curious, which is why I started this thread. He essentially said the mini is a dog as compared to the pros when used as a streamer. I thought, really? No way, man. I have no intention of upgrading. Thanks. Wait a minute. I just said upgrade. When used solely as a streamer, as I use my mini, then the Pros are not really an upgrade, are they?

Yes way. The Streamers are far better in the Po models and are therefore an upgrade.

 

[Sliphorn]

Yes way. The Streamers are far better in the Po models and are therefore an upgrade.

..
Do you care to share what the Po model is? Digital, my man, digital. We are talkin‘ digital only.

 

[TheLastMan]

Passion for Sound has just released a grovelling apology for suggesting that there is no point in buying anything more expensive than a WiiM Pro, and now says that much costlier streamers are better if the rest of your system is high end enough. I think he will have got push back from some high end dealers who can see him undermining their business models. I call BS. I think a blind testing environment is needed when you get to this level of comparison.

I am using a similar DAC arrangement as him, using Chord components through reasonably high end amp and speakers. The sound is little short of astonishing. I have compared CD to WiiM streams with the same recordings and there is no noticeable difference. I suspect if there is a difference with higher end streamers it will be extremely minor and probably due to electrical noise transmitted along coax cables. That is why I use optical Toslink wherever possible.

 

[Sliphorn]

Passion for Sound has just released a grovelling apology for suggesting that there is no point in buying anything more expensive than a WiiM Pro, and now says that much costlier streamers are better if the rest of your system is high end enough. I think he will have got push back from some high end dealers who can see him undermining their business models. I call BS. I think a blind testing environment is needed when you get to this level of comparison.

I am using a similar DAC arrangement as him, using Chord components through reasonably high end amp and speakers. The sound is little short of astonishing. I have compared CD to WiiM streams with the same recordings and there is no noticeable difference. I suspect if there is a difference with higher end streamers it will be extremely minor and probably due to electrical noise transmitted along coax cables. That is why I use optical Toslink wherever possible.

..
Yeah, I saw his apology vid too. He’s a bit of a numb nutz, methinks.
..

 

[Hiphiman]

Passion for Sound has just released a grovelling apology for suggesting that there is no point in buying anything more expensive than a WiiM Pro, and now says that much costlier streamers are better if the rest of your system is high end enough. I think he will have got push back from some high end dealers who can see him undermining their business models. I call BS. I think a blind testing environment is needed when you get to this level of comparison.

I am using a similar DAC arrangement as him, using Chord components through reasonably high end amp and speakers. The sound is little short of astonishing. I have compared CD to WiiM streams with the same recordings and there is no noticeable difference. I suspect if there is a difference with higher end streamers it will be extremely minor and probably due to electrical noise transmitted along coax cables. That is why I use optical Toslink wherever possible.

Earlier in the thread I wondered why this seemed to be a no-go topic for hifi reviewers, especially given its importance to those who enjoy streaming. Maybe I now have the answer.

 

[KCS]

Just want to share my experience, which can be different from others as the environment is different. My Oppo supports HDMI, optical and coax. I have a Firestick, a min and a pro. Firestick is the cheapest solution. It can stream video, and music is still enjoyable. The mini connected to optical sounds better than Firestick connected to HDMI. Connected to optical, the pro has a larger sound stage and more bass than mini. For the pro, coax is better than optical. Instruments and voices can be heard more clearly. I have mix feeling about connecting a LAN cable to the pro. It has more bass, but with 5G WiFi, the sound is cleaner and more relax.

 

[tiziano]

You are saying that there is a difference between using an ethernet cable versus WiFi? I can't see any reason for this, unless either the cable or the WiFi is broken.

 

[Brantome]

I personally may not agree with many, or indeed any, of the above assertions but hi fi is very subjective, so if the OP perceives differences between the items above then so be it, just as long as we understand it’s their experience and opinion, and not immutable fact.

 

[onlyoneme]

Just want to share my experience, which can be different from others as the environment is different. My Oppo supports HDMI, optical and coax. I have a Firestick, a min and a pro. Firestick is the cheapest solution. It can stream video, and music is still enjoyable. The mini connected to optical sounds better than Firestick connected to HDMI. Connected to optical, the pro has a larger sound stage and more bass than mini. For the pro, coax is better than optical. Instruments and voices can be heard more clearly. I have mix feeling about connecting a LAN cable to the pro. It has more bass, but with 5G WiFi, the sound is cleaner and more relax.

I would think about changing your DAC. It seems to be rather low quality.

 

[Smartplug]

Another epic WiFi vs Ethernet.

 

[Brantome]

Another epic WiFi vs Ethernet.

I was hoping comment #43 might nip such discussions in the bud

 

[steadyshot]

There is no superman dac that can handle all noise, jitter and whatever nasty things caused upstream . Some handle it better than others .

You reach a point that you cannot purchase new units or fix your space further . Then you can tweak (to a sensible degree), if you care… If you don’t accept that, it is your choice .