SACD Rabbit Hole...

[motleypixel]

To enjoy SACD sound on a stereo system, here's what you need to do. I have this setup with a Sony Blu-ray/SACD player and it works great.

At Long Last! Listen To Your (Physical) SACDs Through an Outboard DAC

At Long Last! Listen To Your SACDs Through an Outboard DAC George Graves When Sony/Phillips Announced their new Super Audio CD format (SACD) in 1999/2000, Sony opened a marketing office in NYC to advertise and promote the new format. They reached out to a number of audio writers (including, yours...

audiophilestyle.com

Well, I'm reading your article and this is what begs answering IMHO. Oppo designed a quality multi DVD player with the ability to read SADC DSD layers. As it is, it's my understanding that IF I had an AVR with 5.1 or 7.1 surround that I could connect the Oppo to it via HDMI and it would play the SACD DSD bit stream RAW from the Oppo, the analog conversion would be done at the AVR. But I'm not doing that and I feel I should have do do that.

Right now I want to know that the signal looks like coming out of the L/R white/red stereo RCA output jacks on the back of the Oppo when an SACD is played vs a standard audio CD. One might think if they are of the same signal properties, then they would sound the same (if they were of the same source recording material) but even then I'm not entirely convinced. Meaning an SACD DSD converted down to analog via it's internal processing could be different than a PCM read converted down to analog.

One thing is for sure, I'm not throwing more boxes in my setup, it's not required nor desired for my needs.

Thank you.

 

[dtc]

Me replying to Oppo Support:
Also, after posting your reply about digital copyright to the WiiM Forum:

"I think Oppo support is referring to the DSD audio bits and that is certainly copy protected. The question is what it does with that layer when you convert it to PCM. The same restriction may apply, but it is not clear. Maybe Oppo support can answer that question directly. Just ask them if my workaround will work. Hopefully they will know."

So, I'm just trying to justify a use-case here. If I have an SACD and insert it play, and the player reads the DSD layer and the "digital output" is set from "raw" to "pcm" then i connect the RCA L/R output from the player to an amp w/o any DAC it should play music right? Will it be of higher quality than say if I just play a normal audio CD?

Thank you

OPPO Service
7:14 PM (1 hour ago)
Hi Motley, Yes, you will have audio when using the RCA connection with SACDs. Regardless of the setting for DSD or PCM, there will be no audio when playing the DSD

Me Replying back
8:04 PM (35 minutes ago)
to OPPO

Wow, thank you again, I wanted to share some positive feedback with a forum member, please see attached.

This being said, and please pardon my ignorance and lack of knowledge/experience with SACD and this player. In simple terms, will I benefit from higher quality listening playing an SACD (even if it's hybrid, it should default to read the DSD layer) if I connect the Oppo RCA L/R stereo analog output to my audio amplifier? This is my bench test setup, in my listening room I would connect the Oppo L/R RCA output to my WiiM Ultra L/R RCA stereo input, which I believe is sent to the WiiM Ultra's DAC, then passed out the WiiM Ultra's L/R stereo RCA output to the L/R RCA stereo input of my listening room amp (no DAC here) and then onto my stereo speaker system.

I'm just trying to make 100% certain, I WILL benefit from spinning an SACD in the Oppo player compared to, say, just spinning an audio CD red book PCM. Otherwise, why would I start buying SACDs, it would be a complete waste of money.

Thank you.

I am a little confused by Oppo's reply. The first sentence seems to say that SACD to RCA should work, but the second seems to say that there will be no audio for DSD. The first sentence may mean that a DSD to PCM conversion is happening but I am not sure.

EDIT: Rereading - I guess the first sentence says that DSD will be converted to analog by the internal DAC, which you already know. The second sentence may refer to any SACD over coax (or optical) not working but I cannot be sure.

The real issue is can the Oppo convert DSD to PCM and output it over coax or optical. Maybe ask them that directly.

 

[motleypixel]

I am a little confused by Oppo's reply. The first sentence seems to say that SACD to RCA should work, but the second seems to say that there will be no audio for DSD. The first sentence may mean that a DSD to PCM conversion is happening but I am not sure.

I read it as there will be no audio coming out of digital optical or coax regardless of any setting.

 

[dtc]

I read it as there will be no audio coming out of digital optical or coax regardless of any setting.

I think that is what they are implying although they do not specify optical or coax.

I think you are probably right that they say it is not going to work. As I have said, it was a long-shot.

 

[motleypixel]

I think that is what they are implying although they do not specify optical or coax.

I think you are probably right that they say it is not going to work. As I have said, it was a long-shot.

So, coming all the way back around, I have a stereo system that can accept RCA input. can I play and reap the benefits of SACD from this Oppo player? If not,then what was their vision of a customer playing SACD?

 

[jetson]

Right now I want to know that the signal looks like coming out of the L/R white/red stereo RCA output jacks on the back of the Oppo when an SACD is played vs a standard audio CD. One might think if they are of the same signal properties, then they would sound the same (if they were of the same source recording material) but even then I'm not entirely convinced. Meaning an SACD DSD converted down to analog via it's internal processing could be different than a PCM read converted down to analog.

One thing is for sure, I'm not throwing more boxes in my setup, it's not required nor desired for my needs.

Thank you.

It's PCM coming out of the RCA, you will never enjoy DSD in this case. All players like the Oppo are the same. If you want to enjoy DSD you must use a 5.1 or 7.1 amp that supports DSD via HDMI. Otherwise you must do as described in the link, no choice.

 

[Mr Ee]

can I play and reap the benefits of SACD from this Oppo player?

The question is, what are the benefits?

Surround / multi channel sound - into a stereo setup...
Higher bit rate - says nothing about audio quality.
Longer playing time - but not as long as streaming!
Are sacds even being produced anymore?
Rca out into the wiim rca in means additional ADC and DAC. (Not necessarily detrimental, just a statement.)

 

[slartibartfast]

@dtc

Thoughts?

First thought is it is very difficult to read the screenshot on my phone

 

[slartibartfast]

It's PCM coming out of the RCA, you will never enjoy DSD in this case. All players like the Oppo are the same. If you want to enjoy DSD you must use a 5.1 or 7.1 amp that supports DSD via HDMI. Otherwise you must do as described in the link, no choice.

SACDs have stereo mixes as well as 5.1. Surely the Oppo is reading the stereo SACD layer.

 

[jetson]

SACDs have stereo mixes as well as 5.1. Surely the Oppo is reading the stereo SACD layer.

Yes, definitely, but in PCM via the RCA output. Not all SACDs are 5.1, some are only stereo and some only have one SACD layer. Hybrid SACDs have a CD layer and a SACD layer. But in any case, to enjoy DSD quality and not PCM, you must use the HDMI output and not the RCA output.

 

[motleypixel]

Yes, definitely, but in PCM via the RCA output. Not all SACDs are 5.1, some are only stereo and some only have one SACD layer. Hybrid SACDs have a CD layer and a SACD layer. But in any case, to enjoy DSD quality and not PCM, you must use the HDMI output and not the RCA output.

I understand this now, but what I'm not clear on, again, is there any quality difference between playing a normal audio CD in this Oppo fed to either the WiiM Ultra or just directly to an amp (like @Mr Ee said just another conversion that's not "necessarily detrimental") and playing an SACD (confirming it's reading the SACD DSD layer in the display)? This is all I'm after at this point.

See reading more about it, SACD came out before HDMI, so the tech and associated protocol to transport/etc. was designed around multi-channel analog output of the players (and by multi-channel it doesn't mean ONLY 5.1 or 7.1, stereo is also multi-channel). This Oppo has both HDMI out and 7.1 RCA outs.

I'm doing a ton of digging while off this thread, and I'm now on 2 facebook user groups about to post some questions. What I'm seeing most out there is that classical stuff is recorded in 5.1/7.1 where-as typical rock/radio titles are just stereo mixes. So this will lead to more quandaries as in say I I have an SACD that's recorded in 5.1, in the Oppo I have the down mix set to stereo, me thinks it will still be fine but I won't reap the benefits of 5.1 surround if I don't use an integrated amp that supports either HDMI 1.2a (DSD) or has 5.1 surround RCA jacks?

Thank you.

 

[motleypixel]

SACDs have stereo mixes as well as 5.1. Surely the Oppo is reading the stereo SACD layer.

I think it's reading the DSD layer regardless of it's channel format. What it outputs is what is set in the "Down Mix" 5.1/7.1/V.Surround/Stereo" https://forum.wiimhome.com/threads/sacd-rabbit-hole.8284/page-2#post-151295

 

[motleypixel]

First thought is it is very difficult to read the screenshot on my phone

Yeah, I realize that now, I copied and pasted in another user response post.

 

[slartibartfast]

I think it's reading the DSD layer regardless of it's channel format. What it outputs is what is set in the "Down Mix" 5.1/7.1/V.Surround/Stereo" https://forum.wiimhome.com/threads/sacd-rabbit-hole.8284/page-2#post-151295

DSOTM on SACD has a stereo layer for both CD and SACD as well as a 5.1 surround mix so the stereo SACD isn't always a Down Mix from 5.1.

Recording of June 2003: Dark Side of the Moon | Stereophile.com

PINK FLOYD: Dark Side of the Moon Capitol CDP 582136 2 (CD/SACD), Capitol (LP). 1973/2003. Pink Floyd, prods.; Alan Parsons, eng.; James Guthrie, 5.1 remix. AAD/AAA. TT: 43:00 Performance ****½ Sonics ***** (SACD layers) *** (CD layer) Dark Side of the Moon is one of those rare albums that has...

www.stereophile.com

 

[motleypixel]

The question is, what are the benefits?

Surround / multi channel sound - into a stereo setup...
Higher bit rate - says nothing about audio quality.
Longer playing time - but not as long as streaming!
Are sacds even being produced anymore?
Rca out into the wiim rca in means additional ADC and DAC. (Not necessarily detrimental, just a statement.)

Correct, that's the question which clearly needs refinement.

Compare: Using an Oppo DV-980H to play Band A Title Z regular audio CD. Using a stereo RCA L/R interconnect to connect to my stereo amp (no DAC) which powers my 2.1 speaker system (sub via LFE since it's an active sub). VS Using an Oppo DV-980H to play Band A Title Z SACD. Using a stereo RCA L/R interconnect to connect to my stereo amp (no DAC) which powers my 2.1 speaker system (sub via LFE since it's an active sub).

Q: Which of the above is better and why?
Q: What is the difference (if any) of the signal intelligence coming out of the Oppo's L/R RCA jacks?

Ref.: chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.oppodigital.com/support/dv980h/download/DV-980H%20English%20Manual.pdf

Thank you.

 

[motleypixel]

DSOTM on SACD has a stereo layer for both CD and SACD as well as a 5.1 surround mix so the stereo SACD isn't always a Down Mix from 5.1.

Recording of June 2003: Dark Side of the Moon | Stereophile.com

PINK FLOYD: Dark Side of the Moon Capitol CDP 582136 2 (CD/SACD), Capitol (LP). 1973/2003. Pink Floyd, prods.; Alan Parsons, eng.; James Guthrie, 5.1 remix. AAD/AAA. TT: 43:00 Performance ****½ Sonics ***** (SACD layers) *** (CD layer) Dark Side of the Moon is one of those rare albums that has...

www.stereophile.com

Right, I "think" if you set "Down-mix" setting in the player to 5.1 then in this case of this DSOTM SACD it will send intelligence to all 5.1 channel RCA jacks. But if it was set to Stereo it would read only the stereo SACD layer and only send intelligence to the stereo L/R (white/red) jacks. I suppose the question is if the SACD only had a 5.1 layer and the down-mix was set to stereo what would it do?

 

[jetson]

I understand this now, but what I'm not clear on, again, is there any quality difference between playing a normal audio CD in this Oppo fed to either the WiiM Ultra or just directly to an amp (like @Mr Ee said just another conversion that's not "necessarily detrimental") and playing an SACD (confirming it's reading the SACD DSD layer in the display)? This is all I'm after at this point.

See reading more about it, SACD came out before HDMI, so the tech and associated protocol to transport/etc. was designed around multi-channel analog output of the players (and by multi-channel it doesn't mean ONLY 5.1 or 7.1, stereo is also multi-channel). This Oppo has both HDMI out and 7.1 RCA outs.

I'm doing a ton of digging while off this thread, and I'm now on 2 facebook user groups about to post some questions. What I'm seeing most out there is that classical stuff is recorded in 5.1/7.1 where-as typical rock/radio titles are just stereo mixes. So this will lead to more quandaries as in say I I have an SACD that's recorded in 5.1, in the Oppo I have the down mix set to stereo, me thinks it will still be fine but I won't reap the benefits of 5.1 surround if I don't use an integrated amp that supports either HDMI 1.2a (DSD) or has 5.1 surround RCA jacks?

Thank you.

I'm having trouble understanding what you're trying to do. (Google translate ). If you want to get a DSD signal from a DAC or amp, you need to use the Oppo's HDMI output. The WiiM doesn't decode DSD; it converts it to PCM. However, regardless of the receiving device, if the Oppo's RCA output is used, the signal will be PCM.

If you want to know if there's a difference when listening to CD and SACD layers using the RCA output, in my opinion the answer is NO. The best way to test your ears would be to get a SACD or borrow one and you'll be sure.

 

[dtc]

Motlepixel - Good research, saved me a lot of typing

The discussion of whether SACD will sound better than CD is a long one, with people firmly on both sides. Much of it depends on the SACD/CD themselves due to things like remastering. The equipment used to play them as well as your ability to hear differences are also very important. You really just need to experiment. There is no one answer to this question.

Sorry to send you down the PCM rat hole but it was, IMO, worth exploring.

Enjoy.

 

[motleypixel]

Motlepixel - Good research, saved me a lot of typing

The discussion of whether SACD will sound better than CD is a long one, with people firmly on both sides. Much of it depends on the SACD/CD themselves due to things like remastering. The equipment used to play them as well as your ability to hear differences are also very important. You really just need to experiment. There is no one answer to this question.

Sorry to send you down the PCM rat hole but it was, IMO, worth exploring.

Enjoy.

Plenty of "rat holes" within rabbit holes in the world today.

I like music in general, I like streaming from the interwebs, streaming UnPnP casting from my Plex server flac files to my WiiM via Symfonium on my phone, I like CDs from a simple CD transport (SMSL PL-100) to the Ultra via Optical, and I like vinyl (Pioneer PL-7).

What I'm trying to compare here is a regular audio CD vs SACD in my aforementioned setup. If there's zero difference, then my logic is to abandon SACD, it's just a way to waste money and duplicate my CD audio library.

 

[slartibartfast]

I'm having trouble understanding what you're trying to do. (Google translate ). If you want to get a DSD signal from a DAC or amp, you need to use the Oppo's HDMI output. The WiiM doesn't decode DSD; it converts it to PCM. However, regardless of the receiving device, if the Oppo's RCA output is used, the signal will be PCM.

If you want to know if there's a difference when listening to CD and SACD layers using the RCA output, in my opinion the answer is NO. The best way to test your ears would be to get a SACD or borrow one and you'll be sure.

Surely the RCA output is analog not PCM.