Vangelo51
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Its crazy. I dont understand how he can tell DACs sound different when they all measure the same?"more focussed edge orientated sound..."
Latest here my limits have been reached
Test WIIM pro+ with different power supplies
- Thread starter D1N0
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Vangelo51
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Achim....my request was a joke....Sorry, I am the absolute wrong person for such a question. My "sound creating" gear is the analog side. Streaming is easy and fun, but my most unimportant source. Could look different because my presence here is quite day filling, but that has other reasons and is not without a compensation
Soundstage here is made by amps, speakers, turntables, cartridges and vinyl. Or good old CDs.
I too am raised on vinyl. I think one thing vinyl teaches us is how to listen. There are so many tweaks, cartridges, phono stages etc that there can be no argument about differences in sound! In fact, I took it a stage further and developed my own turntable & arm simply because I was not satisfied with what was commercially available. The price & quality of current day analogue equipment shocks me.....
I looked at everything I could find and decided to spend a little and try the iFi ipower2 PS, $69, cheap way to see if a noticeable difference and I have VERY experienced ears and many years ago was a tech on super intense electronics.
I have tuned critical military gear by ear when it would not perform correctly using the manual tuning specs so I am very open minded about trying a certain level of options, iust not super expensive ones. I also built all my own audio and power cables for a very long time, cheap, effective...And I have two 20 amp double shielded power lines just for my audio system, DIY of course, cheap insurance against noise...
I have tuned critical military gear by ear when it would not perform correctly using the manual tuning specs so I am very open minded about trying a certain level of options, iust not super expensive ones. I also built all my own audio and power cables for a very long time, cheap, effective...And I have two 20 amp double shielded power lines just for my audio system, DIY of course, cheap insurance against noise...
Brantome
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Did the ifi PS make any difference? Were you using digital output from your WiiM?
I think for those users saying there’s a difference should post an ap before and after the new power supply. Some say how can 1 and 0 can be cleaned on lps while other swear that there’s difference. Everyone is entitled on their opinion and no reason to bash them because you don’t believe on it.
willbewill
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In an ideal world a PSU giving a USB 5v supply shouldn't make a difference in sound, the equipment it is supplying should be designed with good filtering etc on the incoming supply in order to make all PSUs equal.
I just ordered the PS yesterday so it will be a few days before I receive it. I am one to believe there can be a difference so willing to try it but not at crazy cost levels, that includes interconnects, power cables, etc.....optimized but not super expensive either as at that point it seems to start to become differences but not likely better, just a change in sound. Power cords mainly to allow plenty of current flow for demanding peaks.
A lot of things being made do not have great power filtering as part of the design, many simply do not need it to operate properly and some can introduce noise back onto the power feed making it hard for other gear to filter it out.
Back in my sound quality car audio competition days I had very high end gear, hugely sound deadened vehicles, big power cables, batteries, filter caps, absolutely black background when between tracks, only place to hear it to the fullest extent of refinement was out in the boonies, engine off. Engine on one would hear it of course but acceptable but the black background on the systems was never quite as clean no matter what I tried. All competitions were done with engine off except three different kinds of events where I had to compete in bass but not a test tone, actual music for two minutes which usually blew up the bass monsters so I would beat them anyway. Shockingly my single sealed 15 SQL sub with 1kw still hit 134.5db average for 2 minutes and I never built it to get loud. I do recall second place in bass at one of them, guy had same sub but two in huge ported box, same amp except two so 2kw and only beat me be 1.5db. I smoked them every time in SQ during that part of the comp
A lot of things being made do not have great power filtering as part of the design, many simply do not need it to operate properly and some can introduce noise back onto the power feed making it hard for other gear to filter it out.
Back in my sound quality car audio competition days I had very high end gear, hugely sound deadened vehicles, big power cables, batteries, filter caps, absolutely black background when between tracks, only place to hear it to the fullest extent of refinement was out in the boonies, engine off. Engine on one would hear it of course but acceptable but the black background on the systems was never quite as clean no matter what I tried. All competitions were done with engine off except three different kinds of events where I had to compete in bass but not a test tone, actual music for two minutes which usually blew up the bass monsters so I would beat them anyway. Shockingly my single sealed 15 SQL sub with 1kw still hit 134.5db average for 2 minutes and I never built it to get loud. I do recall second place in bass at one of them, guy had same sub but two in huge ported box, same amp except two so 2kw and only beat me be 1.5db. I smoked them every time in SQ during that part of the comp
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ifi power supply just arrived so I will test this as soon as it can.
Stock PS, iFi and battery bank will be tested and reported on, no measurements will be done, only listening tests so your results may vary since evey single human being perceives things differently.
Those that hear no differences in cables (up to a reasonable cost, crazy priced ones basically just sound different than other crazy ones, IMHO) no difference in DAC's, etc.....you are blessed as can just use whatever you wish and enjoy the music. Us that like to tinker can do whatever we like and make a difference to our ears and if it makes us happy, good for us.
Stock PS, iFi and battery bank will be tested and reported on, no measurements will be done, only listening tests so your results may vary since evey single human being perceives things differently.
Those that hear no differences in cables (up to a reasonable cost, crazy priced ones basically just sound different than other crazy ones, IMHO) no difference in DAC's, etc.....you are blessed as can just use whatever you wish and enjoy the music. Us that like to tinker can do whatever we like and make a difference to our ears and if it makes us happy, good for us.
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Brantome
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Or as I’ve seen suggested elsewhere, try the new toy for a week, then go back to what you previously had for another week. If after that second week you really miss what you think the new toy brought to your listening pleasure, keep it. If not, return it.
I will do a variety of tests and the main one will be with my wife as she has exceptional hearing and loves great music on a great system, she bought Frank Zappa stuff when she was in Jr High. I have pretty good ears as well from my car audio comp days, even did a bit of judging on some of the best installs ever. I beat a prior world champ in SQ on my tune then had Eric Stevens tune it, way better, he used to go to finals and tune at least half the cars there, nearly all top finishers were tuned by him. If you have never heard one of the all time great car audio systems you are in the majority of those I feel sorry for because it can be quite enlightening
For now I can only test with the WiiM either optical or dig coax out since it seems the DSP on my only setup at the moment is not playing the right tweeter when using the RCA inputs. I am debating spending a considerable sum to buy a new DSP board. Maybe I will setup my KEF little line arrays and do a test with my tube amp once I get the roof finished on our place, they are in storage and no sub right now so a bit dead below 80hz.
For now I can only test with the WiiM either optical or dig coax out since it seems the DSP on my only setup at the moment is not playing the right tweeter when using the RCA inputs. I am debating spending a considerable sum to buy a new DSP board. Maybe I will setup my KEF little line arrays and do a test with my tube amp once I get the roof finished on our place, they are in storage and no sub right now so a bit dead below 80hz.
If that is what you want them to do I suppose anything is possible
I like to post a bit of info about my real life experience versus the average arm chair quarterback that just re posts stuff somebody else said which happens far to often. (Not saying you are one, I do not know what you know) I was very blessed to meet some very amazing people in my life that I paid a great deal of attention to and learned then applied it in my way. I have also been into DIY since around 5 or 6 years old, built my first speakers at around 12, built and designed many things all my life, almost all self taught which I believe most anyone can do it they just do it, I am 71 and looking toward many more years of great fun and super cool my wife loves it all, even when I spent a fortune building race cars. I also spent 20 years in the Navy and worked on some of the most difficult gear they ever had, one took 5 scope probes to look at the complex signal and you could not dial it in, nearly 100 circuits the same, by the specs, it simply would not work. Only way and it worked beyond specs, was tuning by ear so the probes were just eye candy once I figured that out. It was one of the most critical pieces of gear in the battle group, maybe the most critical one but I cannot say more.
I like to post a bit of info about my real life experience versus the average arm chair quarterback that just re posts stuff somebody else said which happens far to often. (Not saying you are one, I do not know what you know) I was very blessed to meet some very amazing people in my life that I paid a great deal of attention to and learned then applied it in my way. I have also been into DIY since around 5 or 6 years old, built my first speakers at around 12, built and designed many things all my life, almost all self taught which I believe most anyone can do it they just do it, I am 71 and looking toward many more years of great fun and super cool my wife loves it all, even when I spent a fortune building race cars. I also spent 20 years in the Navy and worked on some of the most difficult gear they ever had, one took 5 scope probes to look at the complex signal and you could not dial it in, nearly 100 circuits the same, by the specs, it simply would not work. Only way and it worked beyond specs, was tuning by ear so the probes were just eye candy once I figured that out. It was one of the most critical pieces of gear in the battle group, maybe the most critical one but I cannot say more.
Will be interested in your results/opinion. The ifi power supply seems to be one of those 'marmite' products...you either love it or hate it.If that is what you want them to do I suppose anything is possible
I like to post a bit of info about my real life experience versus the average arm chair quarterback that just re posts stuff somebody else said which happens far to often. (Not saying you are one, I do not know what you know) I was very blessed to meet some very amazing people in my life that I paid a great deal of attention to and learned then applied it in my way. I have also been into DIY since around 5 or 6 years old, built my first speakers at around 12, built and designed many things all my life, almost all self taught which I believe most anyone can do it they just do it, I am 71 and looking toward many more years of great fun and super cool my wife loves it all, even when I spent a fortune building race cars. I also spent 20 years in the Navy and worked on some of the most difficult gear they ever had, one took 5 scope probes to look at the complex signal and you could not dial it in, nearly 100 circuits the same, by the specs, it simply would not work. Only way and it worked beyond specs, was tuning by ear so the probes were just eye candy once I figured that out. It was one of the most critical pieces of gear in the battle group, maybe the most critical one but I cannot say more.
Have you actually tried marmite? I found it quite awful but I supposed if I grew up eating it I might like it but not entirely sure I would
I have rarely come up with something new and even then really just an adaptation of something already figured out by others but I always thought if others have done is so can I if I put myself into it. I also figured that most could do this but many simply stay in their self limited version of reality. Experience, I have some pretty serious stories about my own or others even far more involved in the highest levels of engineering that are quite interesting to say the least. Experience, earned with open mindedness, can lead to things way beyond what seems possible compared to what most come out of even the top institutions believing they know.
I have rarely come up with something new and even then really just an adaptation of something already figured out by others but I always thought if others have done is so can I if I put myself into it. I also figured that most could do this but many simply stay in their self limited version of reality. Experience, I have some pretty serious stories about my own or others even far more involved in the highest levels of engineering that are quite interesting to say the least. Experience, earned with open mindedness, can lead to things way beyond what seems possible compared to what most come out of even the top institutions believing they know.
I am quite new here and just did not see the other much more in depth thread about power supplies, etc so I could of done things a bit differently. I do have to say I am not in the measurements are everything camp as already explained from real world experience(sometimes in quite hostile situations) and will add that measurements alone would of resulted in devastating results to the entire battle group if we had been attacked.
That plus in my car audio comp days I used a high end RTA, upgraded, studio grade 31 band analog EQ's and Crossover with 20V balanced out from at the time very high end ladder DAC, best car audio DAC at $2500 25 years ago when new. Amps custom modded to handle the high level input voltage and the most expensive car audio speakers available, real works of art and $7500 for a two way set I did not use the crossovers for as each speaker had its own amp channels, 100 per tweeter, 200 per mid, dual custom mid bass drivers 300W each, two custom assebled subs at 1kw each and not built to be super loud though I certainly did get there, it was all about dynamics. Tuning strictly with the RTA using the best test tracks available, test tones, and more...tuned flat, it sounded just that, flat, it would of been laughed out of any serious competition event. The RTA was used to get into a ballpark area and mainly to find and peaks, valleys not that big an issue unless big. Tune down he peaks and work out a nice curve bring up the bottom end, dipping down in the middle a bit, gradually rising top end and then tune to ones preference. Biggest issue of all was install, getting all the drivers to work together with the best possible imaging, I never used TA even when I had gear with it, a band aid compared to proper install which I learned from masters I was again so bless to get to know. When my business took off after getting a 7 page major magazine review I needed money to help fund the growth so sold it all and installed at the time retail maybe a $1500 system and it still had the same exact imagine, stage height and width, would easily beat nearly any competitor because the foundation was done right, it is more important than the gear.
Measurements are very interesting and are of course important but always take second place compared to how it sounds, to you and if you care, to others.
I have been honored to have had the original founder of the oldest home audio "HiFi" shop in the US, a syphony conductor, drummer that has been on over 600 albums and is a recording engineer of big name bands have a turn listening to the top end system and all were blown away by it, The drummer said I blew his mind, he had hundreds of thousands invested in his studio and home systems and said they could not do what mine did, sounded and felt exactly like playing the Improve track by Jim Keltner. I could never of achieved this level without a huge effort and expense on my part far more importantly, help from the masters I learned it all from and they could tune if far better than I ever could and they did so by ear.
This is not meant to be about ego, etc. it is to explain why just measurements are an important tool they are simply not enough
Rick
That plus in my car audio comp days I used a high end RTA, upgraded, studio grade 31 band analog EQ's and Crossover with 20V balanced out from at the time very high end ladder DAC, best car audio DAC at $2500 25 years ago when new. Amps custom modded to handle the high level input voltage and the most expensive car audio speakers available, real works of art and $7500 for a two way set I did not use the crossovers for as each speaker had its own amp channels, 100 per tweeter, 200 per mid, dual custom mid bass drivers 300W each, two custom assebled subs at 1kw each and not built to be super loud though I certainly did get there, it was all about dynamics. Tuning strictly with the RTA using the best test tracks available, test tones, and more...tuned flat, it sounded just that, flat, it would of been laughed out of any serious competition event. The RTA was used to get into a ballpark area and mainly to find and peaks, valleys not that big an issue unless big. Tune down he peaks and work out a nice curve bring up the bottom end, dipping down in the middle a bit, gradually rising top end and then tune to ones preference. Biggest issue of all was install, getting all the drivers to work together with the best possible imaging, I never used TA even when I had gear with it, a band aid compared to proper install which I learned from masters I was again so bless to get to know. When my business took off after getting a 7 page major magazine review I needed money to help fund the growth so sold it all and installed at the time retail maybe a $1500 system and it still had the same exact imagine, stage height and width, would easily beat nearly any competitor because the foundation was done right, it is more important than the gear.
Measurements are very interesting and are of course important but always take second place compared to how it sounds, to you and if you care, to others.
I have been honored to have had the original founder of the oldest home audio "HiFi" shop in the US, a syphony conductor, drummer that has been on over 600 albums and is a recording engineer of big name bands have a turn listening to the top end system and all were blown away by it, The drummer said I blew his mind, he had hundreds of thousands invested in his studio and home systems and said they could not do what mine did, sounded and felt exactly like playing the Improve track by Jim Keltner. I could never of achieved this level without a huge effort and expense on my part far more importantly, help from the masters I learned it all from and they could tune if far better than I ever could and they did so by ear.
This is not meant to be about ego, etc. it is to explain why just measurements are an important tool they are simply not enough
Rick
when someone post better power supply makes the pro sound day and night, how about provide test data before and after the new power supply. Does better power supply makes 1 and 0 cleaner? This is why objective and subjective will never agree particularly on hifi.
Brantome
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This also pops up with great regularity on the FB WiiM Fan Page and I often cut and paste this response - same for optical v coax, plastic or glass fibre etc etc etc:
"Briefly, if you want to try it, use it with your system for a week then go back to the original power supply for another week. If after that time, you feel you're missing something that you felt the new power supply offered, by all means keep it otherwise return it and save yourself the money."
"Briefly, if you want to try it, use it with your system for a week then go back to the original power supply for another week. If after that time, you feel you're missing something that you felt the new power supply offered, by all means keep it otherwise return it and save yourself the money."
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