I am looking for opinions on the above. I currently have a denon 4300 receiver, paradigm founder 80F speakers with a svs sb3000 subwoofer. I am only looking to play 2 channel music. My room is 12' x 18'. I looking for thoughts on adding a wiim ultra to my setup or dropping my denon receiver & purchasing the wiim ultra amp? I am currently trialing the ultra with my current setup. I am wondering how this would compare with using the the wiim ultra amp instead of my denon receiver. The difference in price is not much different so that is not a factor. Thanks
wiim amp ultra or wiim ultra with denon 4300
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With your equipment and for future flexibility, I would go for the WiiM Ultra and let it feed the Denon and the sb3000 to begin with.
The WiiM Amp Ultra's extra cost could be applied to a less-smart, high-quality little power amp like the Fosi ZA3 if you later want to remove the bulk of your old AVR. Also, I've noticed here on this forum that new features and public-beta and official firmware builds seem to reach the WiiM Ultra first.
Are you adding the WiiM [Amp] Ultra mainly for the streaming features, or are you trying to fix something you don't like with the Denon?
The WiiM Amp Ultra's extra cost could be applied to a less-smart, high-quality little power amp like the Fosi ZA3 if you later want to remove the bulk of your old AVR. Also, I've noticed here on this forum that new features and public-beta and official firmware builds seem to reach the WiiM Ultra first.
Are you adding the WiiM [Amp] Ultra mainly for the streaming features, or are you trying to fix something you don't like with the Denon?
I am trying to get better audio quality. I am currently using either HEOS or a firestick (with music apps installed) plugged into a Denon HDMI port. I am having a hard time noticing a better sound quality with the wiim ultra compared to either HEOS or a firestick plugged into a Denon HDMI port. The wiim does have some nice features but am finding using the music streaming apps on the firestick to be just as easy as using a tablet to control the music on the wiim. The firestick advantage is the music apps coming up on my tv & using the firestick remote to search & control music. My favorite about the wiim is the searching for artist, album & tracks. Should music not be sounding better through the wiim ultra than on the firestick? That is why I am wondering how the ultra amp would compare to my current setup.
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hipoagumol
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Your sound (and all of us) main quality bottleneck is not the streamer vs firestick, wiim amp or denon app. It ls the room and the speakers and their interactionn. Your amp/receiver is capable and your speakers are good.
Using wiim ultra as input instead of firetv/heos even wiim amp ultra to replace also the denon wont give you any sound quality improvement 'per se', assuming you are using fairly same and good streaming quality both cases.
in my opinion you may keep your receiver and if you want maybe use a wiim pro/pro plus/ultra conected via rca to your your denon.
Wiim ecosystem does offer a very good app and integration of streaming services, internet radios etc...multiroom etc. Maybe more convinient than Heos. Plus fire tv wiim app to nicely see art and lyrics and control (up to some extent) your wiim playback. But the most important, it has a very nice room correction and EQ functions, that would help on the room correction part and will make a clearly audible sound difference much more than changing the amp or the streaming source...
Using wiim ultra as input instead of firetv/heos even wiim amp ultra to replace also the denon wont give you any sound quality improvement 'per se', assuming you are using fairly same and good streaming quality both cases.
in my opinion you may keep your receiver and if you want maybe use a wiim pro/pro plus/ultra conected via rca to your your denon.
Wiim ecosystem does offer a very good app and integration of streaming services, internet radios etc...multiroom etc. Maybe more convinient than Heos. Plus fire tv wiim app to nicely see art and lyrics and control (up to some extent) your wiim playback. But the most important, it has a very nice room correction and EQ functions, that would help on the room correction part and will make a clearly audible sound difference much more than changing the amp or the streaming source...
Hi,
Nice speakers
I was just about to order a pair when I got a very good deal on the 100Fs instead. (This was a few years back; they are waaay more expensive now!)
I can't comment on how the Denon compares to the Amp Ultra.
My room is a similar size to yours and I can say that the Amp Ultra sounds really good with my Founders.
Surprisingly good in fact.
But there are caveats.
I sometimes play things quite loud, and on quieter tracks even 100% volume isn't particularly loud.
When things are loud it's not as refined as my 'normal' amp, like it's running out of steam.
But for the vast majority of everyday listening it's quite capable of providing a clean, engaging sound.
One thing I would say about "maybe use a wiim pro/pro plus/ultra conected via rca to your your denon" is don't use a Pro
For me, the Pro's analog out is very significantly inferior to that of the Ultra. I don't have personal experience of the Pro Plus. When I did these comparisons a year or two back it was into a Hegel H190 (with the Founders), which doesn't digitise the analog inputs.
Nice speakers
I was just about to order a pair when I got a very good deal on the 100Fs instead. (This was a few years back; they are waaay more expensive now!)
I can't comment on how the Denon compares to the Amp Ultra.
My room is a similar size to yours and I can say that the Amp Ultra sounds really good with my Founders.
Surprisingly good in fact.
But there are caveats.
I sometimes play things quite loud, and on quieter tracks even 100% volume isn't particularly loud.
When things are loud it's not as refined as my 'normal' amp, like it's running out of steam.
But for the vast majority of everyday listening it's quite capable of providing a clean, engaging sound.
One thing I would say about "maybe use a wiim pro/pro plus/ultra conected via rca to your your denon" is don't use a Pro
For me, the Pro's analog out is very significantly inferior to that of the Ultra. I don't have personal experience of the Pro Plus. When I did these comparisons a year or two back it was into a Hegel H190 (with the Founders), which doesn't digitise the analog inputs.
I am using the rca cables to the cd input on the denon. I thought there would be better sound using the wiim dac.
Since you've got it, try this experiment: Setup the WiiM Ultra as a 'digital preamp" feeding the Denon in 'power-amp mode' AND feeding your subwoofer via the Ultra's LFE output. [Edit for clarity] Turn the Denon up as high as you occasionally listen and free it of subwoofer duty with full-range-output to the mains. Set your crossover and time alignment in the WiiM app and then run RoomFit. After running RoomFit, I would look at the RoomFit PEQ results and select the strongest and most effective filter recommendations below the crossover frequency, and implement them in the SVS. Then run roomfit again to let it tune from the crossover up to ~500Hz or so through the Denon. You should also try using one of the Ultra's digital outputs to the Denon for the main speakers, perhaps its DAC will sound better to you.
This approach might give you the noticeable audio enhancements relative to how well the Denon and SVS are now configured together.
I am sorry but can you explain the digital pre amp setup & denon in power amp mode
Well, the WiiM takes over your AVR's role as the controller of system volume for one thing, adjusting the subwoofer and Denon output level using 32-bit digital attenuation. Both the SVS subwoofer and the Denon are set to max listening volume and the WiiM feeds them both with crossover management, etc. Is there a TV in the picture? Oh - sorry about that. But the Ultra's HDMI ARC input would optimally hijack the TV's HDMI ARC port. You would then move your fire stick to a TV HDMI port which could then play through the WiiM via the HDMI ARC.
Yes there is a tv. I was told to use rca cables out to denon to use the wiim dac. I will try your suggestions. Thanks
You can still do that - the point is we're updating the DSP capabilities of your stereo 2.1 channel setup so that the WiiM Ultra handles the crossover and Room Correction. Again, the WiiM Ultra will output all the audio [Edit: all the High-Pass-Filtered, EQed and level-adjusted audio] to the Denon via either RCA line out, or via digital coax or optical. The Denon has lots of options. Whether you choose the WiiM Ultra's DAC or the Denon's the Ultra is handling the crossover and volume as the digital controller of the system. You'll control the system volume via the TV's remote or the ultra's.
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An AVR will typically convert all incoming analog ((WiiM Ultra using RCA output) signals to digital and ultimately back to analog using its internal DAC. This might be contributing to why there is no difference in sound quality in your case.
What you want is an analog bypass where the analog to digial converstion in the AVR is bypassed and the analog signal is fed directly to the Denon AVR amplifier section. As best I can tell the Denon does not have this feature.
You can try using the Direct Mode on the Denon AVR. The manual says this mode is accessed by using the PURE button on the remote. However from what I could find, this does not appear to eliminate Denon'a analog to digital conversion but simply turns off the Denon's sound processing settings such as room correction.
So you'll definitely want to try a WiiM Amp Ultra to see if you can hear any difference. You can also feed a digital signal from the WiiM to the Denon to see if there a sonic difference.
What you want is an analog bypass where the analog to digial converstion in the AVR is bypassed and the analog signal is fed directly to the Denon AVR amplifier section. As best I can tell the Denon does not have this feature.
You can try using the Direct Mode on the Denon AVR. The manual says this mode is accessed by using the PURE button on the remote. However from what I could find, this does not appear to eliminate Denon'a analog to digital conversion but simply turns off the Denon's sound processing settings such as room correction.
So you'll definitely want to try a WiiM Amp Ultra to see if you can hear any difference. You can also feed a digital signal from the WiiM to the Denon to see if there a sonic difference.
I was curious about the potential of an internal ADC-DAC conversion with RCA to the Denon and asked Gemini's "Thinking" LLM mode... Apparently you need to set things in a very specific way, on a full moon, in order to make PureDirect(TM) actually pure... I enlarged the suggested Denon config to make it work, but the instructions are NOT verified:
Gemini:
"The Two Signal Path Choices
| Feature | Analog Path (Uses WiiM DAC) | Digital Path (Uses Denon DAC) |
| Connection | WiiM RCA Out $\rightarrow$ Denon RCA In | WiiM Coax Out $\rightarrow$ Denon Coax In |
| DAC Used | WiiM Ultra (32-bit SABRE) | Denon 4300 (AKM 4458) |
| AVR Mode | Pure Direct (Required) | Any Mode |
| Processing | Bypasses all Denon DSP | Uses Denon DSP (Audyssey, etc.) |
Why "Pure Direct" is the Ticket
To leverage the WiiM's modern DAC and internal High Pass Filter (HPF) processing without interference, the configuration you described is the most technically "pure" for an audiophile setup:- WiiM Settings: Set the Crossover in the WiiM app. This applies the HPF to the RCA outputs and the LPF to the Subwoofer output.
- Physical Connection: Use high-quality RCA cables from the WiiM Ultra to an analog input on the Denon (e.g., "CD" or "Media Player").
- Denon Mode: Select Pure Direct.
- In this mode, the Denon acts as a "straight wire with gain," routing the analog signal from the WiiM directly to the volume control and power amps.
- It bypasses the ADC (Analog-to-Digital) stage and all internal DSP.
- Denon Configuration: * Speakers: Must be set to Large.
- Subwoofer: Must be set to None/Off.
- Note: If the Denon thinks there is a subwoofer or "Small" speakers, it may attempt to engage its own crossover, which would require digitizing the signal.
Technical Speculation
The ES9038 Q2M in the WiiM Ultra generally offers better signal-to-noise ratios and lower total harmonic distortion than the aging AK4458 inside the Denon. By using the analog path in Pure Direct, you ensure that the only processing occurring is the Parametric EQ and RoomFit performed by the WiiM in the digital domain before its own DAC converts the signal to analog.
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Thanks. This is great information. I am using pure direct & using the rca cables correctly. What I don't have correct from your information is that I have the sub connected to the denon & my speakers set to large. I did have the sub connected to the wiim originally but sub seemed way to loud. Another note is that I have been testing the last few days without using the sub at all. Not connected to the denon or wiim & not hearing any difference. I will definetely try your valuable information. Thanks again
Let's leave the sub out of the equation & just do 2 channel. How should this be setup with no subwoofer
The fact that the sub seemed 'way too loud' connected to the Ultra simply means that we need to complete the gain adjustments and room correction steps. That's a hell of a sub you have, and I'm pretty confident that it'll be what you want once we get things tuned up - please complete the experiment of controlling the 2.1 system audio from the WiiM.
Regarding analog vs digi from WiiM to Denon, if Pure Direct appears to truly work when set to 'Large Speakers' and 'No subwoofer', great. If you run digital optical or coax from Ultra to Denon it'll sound pretty much same
.
Regarding analog vs digi from WiiM to Denon, if Pure Direct appears to truly work when set to 'Large Speakers' and 'No subwoofer', great. If you run digital optical or coax from Ultra to Denon it'll sound pretty much same
.Tell audyssey no sub and set l/r speakers to large. Run audyssey. Use digital in on denon from wiim pro or mini. Take advantage of the pretty good audyssey room correction and dynamic eq already included in your denon.
If you don't care about any of that, sell the denon and get wiim ultra and feed analog to any low distortion/low noise amp with sufficient power to drive your speakers. Use wiim for room correction and sub management if desired.
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