DSD Playback Options - Feature Request for the Wiim Ultra

[Alex Dunavski]

Feature request, in the order of descending preferences. Thank you very much for your anticipated related efforts:

(A) Implement a native DSD playback, or native using DoP. Note: If that may significantly reduce the DSP capabilities of the Ultra, that would be understandable. If that may not be possible, then ...

(B) Add the following to the Ultra's current DSD-to-PCM capabilities:
- Remove the ultra-sonic noise starting from about 30 to 35kHz and up. Note: The ultra-sonic noise is currently present, and can only make the downstream equipment work harder without any benefits.
- Increase the signal loudness by 6dB, or close to 6dB. If with 6dB the avoidance of the signal clipping may be difficult, make the increase of the signal loudness user-selectable, e.g. +3dB, +3.5dB +4dB, +4.5dB, +5dB, +5.5dB, +6dB.
- Convert DSD to PCM with the 88.2kHz or 176.4kHz sampling frequency, rather than the currently used 192kHz.

 

[s3igell]

While some WiiM personnel do surf the User Forum on a frequent basis, the Official method to post a Feature Request is via the WiiM Home App (More / Feedback). Go for it!!
(I've an interest in DSD Playback, too.)

 

[SoFluffy]

I too would love all of these improvements/features. I'll add that I'd also want WavPack (.wv) to be supported, as that cuts the .dsf file size by about 50% while maintaining lossless DSD. (WavPack losslessly compresses DSD much more efficiently than converting .dsf to DOP flac, in case anyone was wondering as I did.)

Even if A isn't possible, the suggestions from B are solid.

 

[Indydan]

I believe the Wiim amp ultra is not DSD compatible. I have noticed though, that it still plays my DSD files. It seems to convert them to PCM?

 

[hgo58]

I believe the Wiim amp ultra is not DSD compatible. I have noticed though, that it still plays my DSD files. It seems to convert them to PCM?

Yes it does.

Playing DSD Audio Files on WiiM Devices

All WiiM devices, except for the WiiM Mini, support DSD audio file playback. These devices convert DSD content into PCM data for playback, with a sample rate of up to 192kHz. Here are the ways you can play DSD audio files on WiiM devices: ...

faq.wiimhome.com

This is to allow volume control and EQ, that is not directly possible with the DSD format.

 

[SoFluffy]

Correct. It's possible to use DOP and then an external DAC (with all EQ off and at 100% volume) to get pass-through DSD, assuming the DAC supports DOP. The issue here is that this is only possible if feeding the WiiM with a DOP source (Roon, flac files pre-encoded to DOP, etc). The WiiM cannot read a .dsf file and then output as native DSD (even if no EQ or volume). This is "option A" in OP's post.

For "option B", the WiiM can convert DSD to PCM on the fly, but does so at 192kHz. As @Alex Dunavski suggested though, the conversion to PCM should be a multiple of 44.1 for the sampling rate (probably 176.4kHz), and be raised by +6dB. And then there should also be a low pass filter to get rid of noise above ~30kHz that might be present when using PCM sampling rates 88.2kHz and higher. DACs will do this filtering automatically when decoding DSD, but won't with PCM. (Someone keep me honest here if that is the exception or the rule.)

 

[vicviper]

Hey all, I registered here specifically to support this request. I am used to a lot of recent streamers/DACs (and cheaper ones!) fully supporting native DSD playback so Wiim being an outlier here was a big disappointment to me. With the DSP processing and restrictions in place, this should at least be an "opt in" feature in the future.

I have a large SACD/DSD library and the PCM conversion works but is obviously not ideal - and also far from what customers expect from modern streamers these days.

 

[s3igell]

I am used to a lot of recent streamers/DACs (and cheaper ones!) fully supporting native DSD playback so Wiim being an outlier here was a big disappointment to me.

Which Streamers (not DACs) support Native DSD Playback?? And from which Inputs??

 

[RazzFazz]

Which Streamers (not DACs) support Native DSD Playback?? And from which Inputs??

I’m afraid you’ll have to look at the top shelf for that – for example, the Lumin D3 and the Lumin T3x. As far as I know the only capable inputs for native DSD is Ethernet and USB.

 

[taube Taube]

Which Streamers (not DACs) support Native DSD Playback?? And from which Inputs??

Eversolo, also from internal storage.

 

[RazzFazz]

Eversolo, also from internal storage.

Every single day learning something new.

 

[Aquaman]

Why not convert to 48/24 FLAC for listening and put the DSD in an archive for future use (perspectively never)?
If it‘s just for playing around with the actual content being of secondary interest WiiMs are the wrong devices. They‘re made for listening.

 

[RazzFazz]

As I wrote, every single day learning fundamental things.

 

[s3igell]

Why not [down-]convert to 48/24 FLAC for listening and put the DSD in an archive for future use (perspectively never)?
If it‘s just for playing around with the actual content being of secondary interest WiiMs are the wrong devices. They‘re made for listening.

Several of us have invested $$ money in DSD (whether downloads or physical SACD media), and would rather not dilute the listening experience. And many of these SACD are unique Remasters with content not available via CD or even most "Hi-Res" Streaming Services.
(You would have the same argument with all those who collect Vinyl - is that a battle you want to start??)

 

[hgo58]

I'm sure the WiiM (amp) Ultra could support DSD volume control in the firmware and the DAC chip support direct DSD conversion.

You would of course loose all kind of EQ, multi room and subwoofer features but else it should be ok.

I guess the reason for not including it, is that WiiM don't see this as their taget user segment. Maybe one day?

 

[Aquaman]

Several of us have invested $$ money in DSD (whether downloads or physical SACD media), and would rather not dilute the listening experience. And many of these SACD are unique Remasters with content not available via CD or even most "Hi-Res" Streaming Services.
(You would have the same argument with all those who collect Vinyl - is that a battle you want to start??)

I don‘t want to spoil your listening experience by any means.
What might lessen it is that it was not so clever to spend extra money just on the format. Fine if it was for the contents which was otherwise not available.
I won‘t avoid a battle if this is what you‘re in for. At least I‘d be fighting from solid ground.

 

[dtc]

Actually, support for some of what you are asking for should be pretty easy and some is already there, although I do not know if the current internal designs made things like native DSD undoable.

1) DoP passthrough is already possible for 1x (2.8 Mhz) and 2x (5.6 MHz) DSD. I have not done it, but others have reported doing it successfully. You just need to have a player that will send DoP to a Wiim device and make sure that it is passed through unaltered. You can do that by making sure volume is set to 100% and no DSPs are applied. Wiim has documented how to do bit perfect throughput, but it would also be nice to have a setting that guarantees these conditions are in place. Doing 4x or 8x DSD DoP would require higher PCM rates than are currently available on Wiim products.

2) The current DSD to PCM conversion should definitely have an option to include a low pass filter. Filtering out the high frequency noise is a part of the Sony/Philips standard and any implementation of DSD to PCM should include it. The original Sony filter was at 50 MHz with a 48dB/octave roll off, although some people think a lower cut off or different slooe is appropriate. In any case, some low pass filter should be applied. Such a filter should be pretty easy to implement, as least on the new Wiim streamers.

3) Native DSD is a different story. It uses a non-standard format to transfer the DSD bits and takes some more work to implement, but many external DACs do it, even inexpensive one, do it so it is probably not that hard to implement, unless there is some internal design that would not allow it.

 

[EddNog]

...
- Convert DSD to PCM with the 88.2kHz or 176.4kHz sampling frequency, rather than the currently used 192kHz.

In case it didn't come up, you could always apply this beforehand (or as a temporary stopgap until WiiM does something). That's what I did; I used a batch converter to create 176.4KHz PCM versions of my DSD-encoded files. For me of course I don't have a choice--I need DSP applied due to bass management, so straight to PCM it was for me.

-Ed