DSD Playback Options - Feature Request for the Wiim Ultra

[Alex Dunavski]

Feature request, in the order of descending preferences. Thank you very much for your anticipated related efforts:

(A) Implement a native DSD playback, or native using DoP. Note: If that may significantly reduce the DSP capabilities of the Ultra, that would be understandable. If that may not be possible, then ...

(B) Add the following to the Ultra's current DSD-to-PCM capabilities:
- Remove the ultra-sonic noise starting from about 30 to 35kHz and up. Note: The ultra-sonic noise is currently present, and can only make the downstream equipment work harder without any benefits.
- Increase the signal loudness by 6dB, or close to 6dB. If with 6dB the avoidance of the signal clipping may be difficult, make the increase of the signal loudness user-selectable, e.g. +3dB, +3.5dB +4dB, +4.5dB, +5dB, +5.5dB, +6dB.
- Convert DSD to PCM with the 88.2kHz or 176.4kHz sampling frequency, rather than the currently used 192kHz.

 

[vicviper]

1) DoP passthrough is already possible for 1x (2.8 Mhz) and 2x (5.6 MHz) DSD. I have not done it, but others have reported doing it successfully. You just need to have a player that will send DoP to a Wiim device and make sure that it is passed through unaltered. You can do that by making sure volume is set to 100% and no DSPs are applied. Wiim has documented how to do bit perfect throughput, but it would also be nice to have a setting that guarantees these conditions are in place. Doing 4x or 8x DSD DoP would require higher PCM rates than are currently available on Wiim products.

That's very interesting! Can you point me to that documentation?

I think I just managed to send a DoP stream (DSD64 source) to my Wiim Amp Ultra through LMS/Squeezelite but want to make sure it's actually accurate. I was able to use volume control and also don't see why this would be an issue using the hardware mixer.

 

[slartibartfast]

Doing some experiments with LMS/Squeezelite and this happened. Not sure yet if this is just a display error as I have found no way to confirm what format the Wiim Amp Ultra is actually playing here...

Is that using the DSD Player plugin in LMS?

 

[vicviper]

Is that using the DSD Player plugin in LMS?

Yes that's indeed a plugin I have installed but found no actual config for. I think without it I wasn't able to get DSD playback at all and PCM conversion on the Wiim did also not kick in.

 

[Burnside]

Yes that's indeed a plugin I have installed but found no actual config for. I think without it I wasn't able to get DSD playback at all and PCM conversion on the Wiim did also not kick in.

Yeah, I just loaded up that DSD player plugin on Lyrion and play to my Ultra, with the WiiM app showing the same resolution info viz.

 

[slartibartfast]

Yes that's indeed a plugin I have installed but found no actual config for. I think without it I wasn't able to get DSD playback at all and PCM conversion on the Wiim did also not kick in.

Config for DSD Player is in Player Settings

 

[vicviper]

Thanks, I haven't actually changed any of the settings for the plugin so I don't even think DoP was enabled. Somehow it just works now. If I only had a way of finding out if the Wiim is actually playing DSD natively or if it's just a wrong display.

 

[slartibartfast]

Thanks, I haven't actually changed any of the settings for the plugin so I don't even think DoP was enabled. Somehow it just works now. If I only had a way of finding out if the Wiim is actually playing DSD natively or if it's just a wrong display.

I think LMS does the transcoding to PCM but the display shows the original DSD bitrate.

 

[Burnside]

Thanks, I haven't actually changed any of the settings for the plugin so I don't even think DoP was enabled. Somehow it just works now. If I only had a way of finding out if the Wiim is actually playing DSD natively or if it's just a wrong display.

i guess it’s showing the input file resolution but is outputting 24/176.4 pcm as that’s what my linn amp shows when I feed it that track over usb from my ultra.

 

[vicviper]

I believe you are both correct and the conversion is still happening. There is no audible difference to me listening to the same file from a network share through the Wiim App using PCM conversion. Now the question would be which PCM conversion is better - Wiim's or DSDPlayer plugin from LMS. Toying around with some of the settings here but unable to find actual sampling rate config.

 

[FvW]

 

[dtc]

I used JRiver Media Player to play a 2.822 MHz DSD using DoP through a Wiim Pro with output to the coax output. The Wiim was set with volume at 100% and no DSPs was applied - so bit perfect. My Chord Hugo DAC shows that it playing DSD. Wiim shows that it is playing 176/24, which is the correct PCM sample rate for DoP on a 2.822 MHz track. So, it seems that if you have a software player that will send DoP to the Wiim it will pass the DoP to the DAC which will play the DSD. The trick seems to be to have a software player that will send DoP to the Wiim. Note this only works for 2.822 MHz DSD since 5.6 MHz and above uses PCM sample rates that are too high for the Wiim.

So, I believe the Wiim will correctly pass 2.822MHz DoP to the output if set up correctly. It would be good if someone else could confirm this.

 

[vicviper]

What's the point of outputting DSD/DoP from a Wiim device? There are much cheaper options to easily achieve native DSD or DoP output to DACs & Amps directly.

I think it's much more interesting to use a Wiim Amp/Ultra for direct DSD/DoP decoding which is the point of this feature request.

 

[dtc]

What's the point of outputting DSD/DoP from a Wiim device? There are much cheaper options to easily achieve native DSD or DoP output to DACs & Amps directly.

I think it's much more interesting to use a Wiim Amp/Ultra for direct DSD/DoP decoding which is the point of this feature request.

In my case, all my music (PCM wirelessly from my PC or streaming) goes through my Wiim to my DAC. So, it just seems logical to be able to play DSD the same way. I do not want to replace my existing DAC or add yet another box and I need a wireless solution. My PC is not near my DAC. I think others are in the same situation.

I'd be interested in knowing what inexpensive solution (hardware and software) you would recommend to wirelessly send DSD from my PC to my existing DAC .

The one clear drawback to using the Wiim for DoP passthru is that it only supports 2.8MHz playback. It would be nice for Wiim to increase their top sample rate to 384 KHz so it would support 5.6 MHz DSD (or even 768 KHz). These are common sample rates in many DACs these days. In my case, it also means I need a software player that will send DoP to a DLNA device, which I have in JRiver.

This solution may not be for everyone, but I think there is a group of people who would find it useful.

 

[EddNog]

In my case, all my music (PCM wirelessly from my PC or streaming) goes through my Wiim to my DAC. So, it just seems logical to be able to play DSD the same way. I do not want to replace my existing DAC or add yet another box and I need a wireless solution. My PC is not near my DAC. I think others are in the same situation.

I'd be interested in knowing what inexpensive solution (hardware and software) you would recommend to wirelessly send DSD from my PC to my existing DAC .

The one clear drawback to using the Wiim for DoP passthru is that it only supports 2.8MHz playback. It would be nice for Wiim to increase their top sample rate to 384 KHz so it would support 5.6 MHz DSD (or even 768 KHz). These are common sample rates in many DACs these days. In my case, it also means I need a software player that will send DoP to a DLNA device, which I have in JRiver.

This solution may not be for everyone, but I think there is a group of people who would find it useful.

DSD requires a really, really high data rate; even WiFi is questionable.

-Ed

 

[dtc]

DSD requires a really, really high data rate; even WiFi is questionable.

-Ed

When using DoP the DSD bits are encoded in a PCM stream. In the case of 2.8MHz the PCM is 176 KHz, which certainly works with WiFI with no issue. Even native DSD is sent encoded in a PCM like stream at pretty normal PCM like speeds. DSD over WiFi is certainly doable and people do it every day.

DoP uses a 24 bit word with 8 bits used to identify the content as DSD and then the remaining 16 bits are just 16 bits of the DSD signal. So, 2.822 MHz divided by sixteen gives a PCM signal of 24/176. The data is not sent at MHz rates.

 

[vicviper]

DSD requires a really, really high data rate; even WiFi is questionable.

-Ed

DSD64 is just little over 5Mbps. 4K movies stream at 15-25Mbps easily via Wifi. Even uncompressed PCM at 24bit/192khz uses more than 10Mbps.

 

[vicviper]

I'd be interested in knowing what inexpensive solution (hardware and software) you would recommend to wirelessly send DSD from my PC to my existing DAC .

I pointed out a few examples in my post on this thread here: https://forum.wiimhome.com/threads/...e-request-for-the-wiim-ultra.8406/post-172078

I'm sure that many of these solutions will support your storage/software of choice.