How to think about room correction settings like frequency range and gain?

The low bass response is a problem thats been puzzling me. It is in fact so bad that Wiim Ultra and Audiophonics sound terrible with flat EQ.

Right speaker is approx 2 meter from wall to the right. The left one (unfortunately) don't really have a wall to the left of it since it is just an opening there leading to the hallway. No way to place it in any other way before we move to another apartment I'm afraid.
Actually I'd say the right speaker is the more problematic one; that SBIR dip between 40Hz and 50Hz is where a lot of your low bass is lost. In this sense your left speaker is benefiting from not having a left wall close to it.

Could you perhaps move the right speaker even further away from the right wall? An extra 0,5m should help already, but the more you can move it the lower in frequency the dip will shift.

You could also move it closer to the right wall and thereby shift the bass dip to a higher frequency, then see if you prefer that. But IMHO that would likely make the problem worse, as you'd most likely get the dip in the bass guitar range.

Alternatively you could probably get a smoother low bass response with a dedicated subwoofer, since you could then place it independently from the mains.
 
I have the WiiM Ultra and a pair of Triangle BR03 Connect speakers. I also have a Klipsch sub. I have been trying to do the room correction. I even got the UMIK-1 mic and downloaded the relevant file. I tried so many variations (with and without the sub) but whatever I do I end up with very weak bass outcome (below is a sample). Could you please give me some advice?View attachment 19458
Hello!

Have you already tried these placement and RC settings suggestions?

Also I'd suggest to use "Individual channel" RC option, that will give you roughly 3dB more bass compared to "Stereo" RC in practice.
Make sure to disable "Precision" RC - that currently has a bug resulting in decreased bass response.

If you still want more bass after doing all of the above, try using the Harman target instead of B&K.

Good luck!
 
What seems to work fairly well in many cases (and is relatively physically inobtrusive) is to push the speakers close to the wall behind them (but keep about 5cm of gap to the wall if speakers have a bass-reflex port in the back), and to put the subwoofer in a room corner. Of course it may not work in every room and every layout, but it is a reasonable place to start with.

If you are interested to know more about why these are solid choices I suggest to read this article by Genelec.

In short, pushing speakers close to the wall behind them and subwoofer in a corner will push the main SBIR cancellation to a much higher frequency where it is audibly less problematic. Additionally, putting both speakers and sub close to boundaries will increase bass output, which you will anyway tame/knock-back later by EQ (i.e. room correction) - so it gives you more headroom for EQ.

Note that EQ is very good for reducing resonances/peaks in the response, but is not ideal for boosting dips in the response - this is what is driving placement suggestions mentioned above.

After you have optimized placement you should set subwoofer crossover frequency (typically at 80Hz) and match its level to your loudspeaker. Don't be afraid to have the sub slightly louder at this point - that will anyway be fixed by RC later.
If you can measure the in-room response with REW to fine tune the crossover that is even better, but if not you should still be able to achieve solid results by ear.

Once this is done use the automatic WiiM Subwoofer & Speaker Sync function in the WHA to tune the relative delays of the loudspeakers and subwoofer.

After that use the WiiM Room Correction function - I propose to use the following parameters to start:
  • Target curve: B&K
  • Correction range: 20-400Hz
    • This type of EQ much above the specified range can no longer be considered "room correction" but rather "loudspeaker correction". This can easily make the sound worse, especially if you have good loudspeakers.
    • Note: If you don't have a sub that goes down to 20Hz use instead the lower-bound frequency from the sub spec sheet.
  • Max gain: 12dB
    • You need to have a high value here for the app to be able to bring down severe room resonances. A current limitation in the app is that the same max gain control affects both positive and negative gain filters, but this will apparently improve soon.
    • After the separate positive/negative max gain controls are implemented I'd suggest to keep the max positive gain below 3dB (preferably 0), and keep max negative gain at 12dB.
  • Max Q: 5
    • Note that the default value of 10 is IMHO fine in case no EQ boosts/positive filters are applied.
    • If you want to be more conservative, especially until separate positive/negative max gain controls are introduced you can use a lower value like "5", but note that that will also be less precise in knocking down resonance peaks.
  • Smoothing: 1/12 octave
    • IMHO 1/12 octave is the best choice to have any precision in addressing resonant peaks.
    • It would be better if WHA offered progressive variable smoothing (like in REW), but this is not implemented.
  • Subwoofer Calibration: enabled if you have a sub, disabled otherwise.
  • Multiple Measurements: enabled
    • Not critical either way, but I prefer to have it enabled and move the mic a little bit between the attempts to get some spatial smoothing.
  • Precision Room Correction: disabled
  • Import a Calibration File: yes (if you have an external calibrated measurement microphone)
This should already give you solid results - you can share WHA screenshots here and we may be able to help you fine tune if needed.

Hope this is helpful!
You mean you only bring the front loudspeakers 5 cm from the wall when you measure RC in combination with a subwoofer or you do that as well if you measure without subwoofer? Thanks
 
You mean you only bring the front loudspeakers 5 cm from the wall when you measure RC in combination with a subwoofer or you do that as well if you measure without subwoofer? Thanks
It is a solid option in both cases (with and without a sub).

If you have a sub (with 80Hz crossover) a better placement option is to move loudspeakers >1,1m away from any walls, and to have the sub right against the wall.
Hovever, having loudspeakers that deep in the room is physically quite intrusive so not really an option for many people.
 
It is a solid option in both cases (with and without a sub).

If you have a sub (with 80Hz crossover) a better placement option is to move loudspeakers >1,1m away from any walls, and to have the sub right against the wall.
Hovever, having loudspeakers that deep in the room is physically quite intrusive so not really an option for many people.
I have no subwoofer but I will do a measurement based on your recommendations. Very helpful. Thanks.
 
It is a solid option in both cases (with and without a sub).

If you have a sub (with 80Hz crossover) a better placement option is to move loudspeakers >1,1m away from any walls, and to have the sub right against the wall.
Hovever, having loudspeakers that deep in the room is physically quite intrusive so not really an option for many people.
I did a measurement based on your recommendations and……..it sounds great!! Thanks again.
-Frans
 
Hello!

Have you already tried these placement and RC settings suggestions?

Also I'd suggest to use "Individual channel" RC option, that will give you roughly 3dB more bass compared to "Stereo" RC in practice.
Make sure to disable "Precision" RC - that currently has a bug resulting in decreased bass response.

If you still want more bass after doing all of the above, try using the Harman target instead of B&K.

Good luck!
Thanks. I tried so many versions of the recommendations that I am on the verge of giving up. It does not makes sense to see that kind of magnitude of correction in the lower range starting at 40Hz. After the correction parameters are created I have to manually raise the bass to make listening enjoyable.
 
Thanks. I tried so many versions of the recommendations that I am on the verge of giving up. It does not makes sense to see that kind of magnitude of correction in the lower range starting at 40Hz. After the correction parameters are created I have to manually raise the bass to make listening enjoyable.
If you are accustomed to listening to your system with +30dB at 50Hz then listening to a more correct response will sound bass light to you.
 
Thanks. I tried so many versions of the recommendations that I am on the verge of giving up.
I can completely understand that.
When I first looked into room correction I felt really overwhelmed too. Most things didn't seem to work for me and when they did, I couldn't really understand why.
Unfortunately, sound reproduction optimization through room correction is still not very user-friendly - in part because it relies also on the reproduction system specifics and room layout. A lot of competence is still expected from the end-user to optimize the results.

The upside is that if you do persist, it is one of the most rewarding upgrades of sound quality. For me a large part of the "audio hobby" now is learning how to optimize loudspeaker/sub placement, EQ and room correction.

It does not makes sense to see that kind of magnitude of correction in the lower range starting at 40Hz.
It is very common to have such strong resonances in low bass range. This is not unexpected.

After the correction parameters are created I have to manually raise the bass to make listening enjoyable.
However, your measurement screenshot looks like you might have used "stereo" correction together with "precision room correction". Both of these will reduce bass (at least in current form) - in total probably by about 5-10dB, which is a lot indeed. This could explain why you found bass was deficient after the correction. For this I can only suggest to try the variants I proposed in post #62.

Lastly, note that the total amount of bass is a personal preference thing - there's research showing that most listeners prefer reproduction without audible null and resonances (RC addresses this in bass) but the *level* of bass people prefer varies significantly.

So it is absolutely fine to manually raise or lower the bass (after you perform room correction to smooth it out).
Note that room correction is really only meant to smooth-out the irregularities in the response, but you are still free to tune relative bass level to taste. You can do this either by using a different target for RC (e.g. "Harman" for more bass or "flat" for less bass), by using the new Ultra beta function that separates EQ from RC, or with a bass/treble tone control (if you have one elsewhere in the chain).
 
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What seems to work fairly well in many cases (and is relatively physically inobtrusive) is to push the speakers close to the wall behind them (but keep about 5cm of gap to the wall if speakers have a bass-reflex port in the back), and to put the subwoofer in a room corner. Of course it may not work in every room and every layout, but it is a reasonable place to start with.

If you are interested to know more about why these are solid choices I suggest to read this article by Genelec.

In short, pushing speakers close to the wall behind them and subwoofer in a corner will push the main SBIR cancellation to a much higher frequency where it is audibly less problematic. Additionally, putting both speakers and sub close to boundaries will increase bass output, which you will anyway tame/knock-back later by EQ (i.e. room correction) - so it gives you more headroom for EQ.

Note that EQ is very good for reducing resonances/peaks in the response, but is not ideal for boosting dips in the response - this is what is driving placement suggestions mentioned above.

After you have optimized placement you should set subwoofer crossover frequency (typically at 80Hz) and match its level to your loudspeaker. Don't be afraid to have the sub slightly louder at this point - that will anyway be fixed by RC later.
If you can measure the in-room response with REW to fine tune the crossover that is even better, but if not you should still be able to achieve solid results by ear.

Once this is done use the automatic WiiM Subwoofer & Speaker Sync function in the WHA to tune the relative delays of the loudspeakers and subwoofer.

After that use the WiiM Room Correction function - I propose to use the following parameters to start:
  • Target curve: B&K
  • Correction range: 20-400Hz
    • This type of EQ much above the specified range can no longer be considered "room correction" but rather "loudspeaker correction". This can easily make the sound worse, especially if you have good loudspeakers.
    • Note: If you don't have a sub that goes down to 20Hz use instead the lower-bound frequency from the sub spec sheet.
  • Max gain: 12dB
    • You need to have a high value here for the app to be able to bring down severe room resonances. A current limitation in the app is that the same max gain control affects both positive and negative gain filters, but this will apparently improve soon.
    • After the separate positive/negative max gain controls are implemented I'd suggest to keep the max positive gain below 3dB (preferably 0), and keep max negative gain at 12dB.
  • Max Q: 5
    • Note that the default value of 10 is IMHO fine in case no EQ boosts/positive filters are applied.
    • If you want to be more conservative, especially until separate positive/negative max gain controls are introduced you can use a lower value like "5", but note that that will also be less precise in knocking down resonance peaks.
  • Smoothing: 1/12 octave
    • IMHO 1/12 octave is the best choice to have any precision in addressing resonant peaks.
    • It would be better if WHA offered progressive variable smoothing (like in REW), but this is not implemented.
  • Subwoofer Calibration: enabled if you have a sub, disabled otherwise.
  • Multiple Measurements: enabled
    • Not critical either way, but I prefer to have it enabled and move the mic a little bit between the attempts to get some spatial smoothing.
  • Precision Room Correction: disabled
  • Import a Calibration File: yes (if you have an external calibrated measurement microphone)
This should already give you solid results - you can share WHA screenshots here and we may be able to help you fine tune if needed.

Hope this is helpful!
Pushing the speakers near the wall will make SBIR look better, at the same time you loose some quality because of early reflections, and this will muddy up fine details in the music. One can treat this with some damping material behind the speaker, and around it, about 1 meter. Genelec dont mention this, probably because their studiomonitors is ment to be placed in a studio with damping material on the walls.

This is how it can be done.
Picture of newest Carlsson speaker, OA61

IMG_0881.jpeg
 
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In an ideal world we could all put speakers in the best position but in reality how many of us can do that if we don't have a dedicated music room?
True, but if one has the abillity to place the speakers at the best place before doing any room correction, the sound will be better.
Roomcorrection with bad speaker installation cant be as good sounding as having the speakers perfectly installed in the first place.

You can spend thousand of hours trying to correct for perfect sound with the dsp, but if the speakers arent at the right place in the beginning, its a waste of time.
 
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I can completely understand that.
When I first looked into room correction I felt really overwhelmed too. Most things didn't seem to work for me and when they did, I couldn't really understand why.
Unfortunately, sound reproduction optimization through room correction is still not very user-friendly - in part because it relies also on the reproduction system specifics and room layout. A lot of competence is still expected from the end-user to optimize the results.

The upside is that if you do persist, it is one of the most rewarding upgrades of sound quality. For me a large part of the "audio hobby" now is learning how to optimize loudspeaker/sub placement, EQ and room correction.


It is very common to have such strong resonances in low bass range. This is not unexpected.


However, your measurement screenshot looks like you might have used "stereo" correction together with "precision room correction". Both of these will reduce bass (at least in current form) - in total probably by about 5-10dB, which is a lot indeed. This could explain why you found bass was deficient after the correction. For this I can only suggest to try the variants I proposed in post #62.

Lastly, note that the total amount of bass is a personal preference thing - there's research showing that most listeners prefer reproduction without audible null and resonances (RC addresses this in bass) but the *level* of bass people prefer varies significantly.

So it is absolutely fine to manually raise or lower the bass (after you perform room correction to smooth it out).
Note that room correction is really only meant to smooth-out the irregularities in the response, but you are still free to tune relative bass level to taste. You can do this either by using a different target for RC (e.g. "Harman" for more bass or "flat" for less bass), by using the new Ultra beta function that separates EQ from RC, or with a bass/treble tone control (if you have one elsewhere in the chain).
To get the prefered Harman curve below 100 Hz in the bass, one can use shelving . Frequency 60Hz, gain 3dB, Q=1
 
Pushing the speakers near the wall will make SBIR look better, at the same time you loose some quality because of early reflections, and this will muddy up fine details in the music. One can treat this with some damping material behind the speaker, and around it, about 1 meter. Genelec dont mention this, probably because their studiomonitors is ment to be placed in a studio with damping material on the walls.

This is how it can be done.
Picture of newest Carlsson speaker, OA61

View attachment 19601
While I agree with the main points of your post (i.e. close to wall placement has drawbacks and that treating the wall with absorption can be beneficial), I'm still quite convinced this type of placement is a very good option for most people.

Let me elaborate my position.

First, it is important to understand that the early reflection from the loudspeaker to the wall behind it will cause an interference pattern with the direct sound of the loudspeaker - this is a fact regardless of the distance between the loudspeaker and the wall - i.e. close to wall placement will not eliminate the interference.

What does change as we change the distance is:
  • Delay between the direct sound and the early reflection,
  • Frequency where the interference pattern starts, and
  • How deep the nulls / how high the peaks are in the interference pattern.
We call this interference SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interference Response), and it applies to all boundaries (walls, ceiling, floor) around a loudspeaker, not just the wall behind it.

Here's an illustration from the Genelec article I linked to previously:
monitorplacement_cancellation.jpg



The main principle is that as we move the loudspeaker further from a wall the first dip in the response will move to a lower frequency and become deeper / more severe, and as we move it closer to a wall the first dip in the response will move to a higher frequency and become shallower / less severe.

Now, let's try to be pragmatic and calculate the first few SBIR null/peak frequencies for various distances from the wall:
1744183149310.png

The top row shows how close the front face of the loudspeaker needs to be to the wall to push the first SBIR null above 20kHz (i.e. the commonly accepted human hearing limit). As you can see, the distance to achieve this is only 4mm, meaning that the loudspeaker body would need to be in the wall.

Note that this is why soffit mounting of loudspeakers (i.e. installation where the loudspeaker front face is flush with the wall) is considered the ideal and is used widely in professional recording studios - when the loudspeaker front face is flush with the wall the SBIR frequencies will go to so high a frequency they will effectively be out of the human audible range.​

In other words, no box speaker can go that close to the wall behind it in most practical scenarios because the typical bookshelf speaker box depth is usually 30-50cm. Here I assume most people won't be willing to do construction work to place their speakers.
If we also assume additional ~5cm distance for back port to work properly, the realistic distance for many people will be 35-55cm from front face of the loudspeaker to the wall behind it. As you can see from the table will put the first SBIR null/dip between about 150-300Hz.

The table above should also illustrate that by pushing the loudspeaker away from the wall we push the SBIR interference to a lower frequency and spread it over a wider frequency range.

As you can see, having the loudspeaker more than about 0,6m from the wall behind it will put the first/main SBIR null/dip right in the upper bass (80-150Hz), where a lot of the energy is in many mixes. This dip will also be more severe (i.e. deeper) than the one caused by closer to wall placement.

This is why placing loudspeakers such that their front face is >0,6m from the wall behind is usually not recommended. This is also why for full-range loudspeakers (i.e. loudspeakers used without subwoofers) it is recommended to place them close to the wall behind them.

Now notice that for speaker placement >1,1m from the wall the first SBIR dip gets below ~80Hz.
If you have your loudspeakers high-passed at 80Hz (e.g. because you have a subwoofer with 80Hz crossover) then in this case the first SBIR dip goes out of the operating range of the loudspeaker - which is great! While this doesn't solve the subsequent SBIR peaks and dips, the 1st dip is the deepest and the most audibly offending.

This is why speaker placement >1,1m from the wall is recommended for systems crossed to a sub at 80Hz. In this case the sub is recommended to be placed as close as possible to a wall to keep the subwoover SBIR null/dip above 80Hz. In this way the main SBIR nulls of both the loudspeakers and the subwoofer are outside of their operating ranges - making this the second-best placement option (i.e. behind soffit mounting loudspeakers).

However, the problem with this is that having loudspeakers >1,1m into the room is quite intrusive and not really an option for most people for practical reasons.
Note that pushing the loudspeakers close to the wall behind is still an acceptable (but slightly worse) alternative, for the same reasons as explained above. It may be an acceptable compromise to many for practical reasons.

As we can see, neither placement option 1 (soffit mounting loudspeakers) nor option 2 (loudspeakers >1,1m into the room + a well integrated subwoofer) may be practical for most people.
On the other hand, placement close to the wall behind is a reasonable compromise that works similarly well with and without subwoofers, and is not physically intrusive.

Now let me come back to your suggestion to add acoustic treatment to the back wall. The intention here would to absorb the early reflection from the back of the loudspeaker and thereby avoid the SBIR interference altogether.

First, let's see how the back reflection spectrum actually looks like compared to the direct sound for two different box-type front-firing loudspeakers (blue is the direct sound, green is the back reflection, solid lines belong to speaker 1, and dashed lines belong to speaker 2; source):
1744186276337.png
Since most commercial loudspeaker designs are not omnidirectional, the spectrum of the back reflection will be decreasing with frequency - which is what we see in this plot too for both speakers. The slope of this decrease depends on loudspeaker directivity - wide directivity designs (speaker 1) will decrease slower, while narrow directivity designs (speaker 2) will decrease faster with frequency.

We can see that in both speakers by about 1000Hz the back reflection is already attenuated by about -10dB compared to the direct sound. This explains why we see that SBIR interference becomes less severe as it is pushed up in frequency - the back reflection has less energy and therefore less influence on the total sound heard at the main listening position.

This also means that if we are to try and absorb the back reflection we need absorbers that have high absorption below 1000Hz, and especially high absorption at the frequency of the first / main SBIR null.

On the other hand, typical porous absorbers work well at high frequencies but poorly at low frequencies. So if we wish to have any theoretical chance of minimizing the SBIR dip via acoustic treatment we need to push the loudspeaker close to the wall behind so that the SBIR null goes as high as possible in frequency.

Now let's looks at the sound absorption coefficient of some commonly used acoustic panels (source):
b0UzScENRJeyiizqoGTT_Glass_Fiber_Vs._Foam_Graph.png

As you can see, even 10cm thick acoustic foam is not very efficient <300Hz, and such thickness won't even fit behind the loudspeaker if we pushed it close enough to the wall to put the SBIR dip >200Hz.
Mineral/glass wool panels are much more efficient at these frequencies, but again the thickness required to be efficient <300Hz make them difficult to place behind a loudspeaker when placed close to the wall behind.

If you push the loudspeaker further from the wall you will be able to place thicker absorption panels, but then the SBIR dip will move lower in frequency and unfortunately it will again end up below the panel operating range. :confused:
While perhaps not impossible, this should illustrate that absorbing the back reflection will be challenging at the very least.

Not to mention that most people probably don't want to have 10cm thick acoustic panels in their living rooms...

Having all of the above in mind, I stand behind my recommendation to place loudspeakers close to the wall behind them. It is IMHO a reasonable compromise that sounds quite good (even if not the best), while not being very intrusive in residential spaces.

At this point it is perhaps worth to mention cardioid bass loudspeakers. These are designed to minimize the level of the back reflection in the 100-300Hz range (example), and thereby decrease SBIR null/dip severity for close to wall placement. They are an amazing solution to these issues for residential spaces, but are unfortunately still quite expensive.

So to summarize, my placement recommendations are as follows:
  • The generic recommendation is to put loudspeakers close to the wall behind.
    • It is simple, sounds good and is non-physical-intrusive, but also not ideal.
  • For those that don't want compromises the following "better" options exists (from "best" to "worst"):
    1. Soffit mounting loudspeakers
    2. Cardioid bass loudspeaker placed close to a wall
    3. Front-firing loudspeakers <1,1m away from walls and integrated to subwoofer(s) crossed at 80Hz
    4. Front-firing loudspeakers close to the wall behind and try to absorb the SBIR dip
Hope this is useful!

You can spend thousand of hours trying to correct for perfect sound with the dsp, but if the speakers arent at the right place in the beginning, its a waste of time.
Again I can agree only partially.
DSP will not solve everything, this I agree with completely, and I also agree that people shouldn't expect that using DSP/RC will magically solve all acoustic problems - regardless of how it is sometimes marketed.

But even in case of less-than-ideal placement DSP can solve some very audible issues and thereby improve the sound significantly. Note that we're much more sensitive to peaks than dips, so addressing peaks has huge value and DSP is pretty well-suited for that task. I disagree that this is a waste of time.

However a big issue with automated room correction / DSP is that it can also try to correct issues that simply aren't there and thereby can also make the sound significantly worse. Unfortunately we're still at a point where significant competence is needed from the end-user to tune the settings to make it work well. This is definitely why it can feel like a waste of time.

Finally, I fully agree that optimizing placement/layout and then carefully applying DSP is the optimal solution. This is perhaps great news for us audio enthusiasts, but I'm sure it is really discouraging for casual users who probably just want audio systems that are easy to setup and use and just sound good. :confused:
 
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While I agree with the main points of your post (i.e. close to wall placement has drawbacks and that treating the wall with absorption can be beneficial), I'm still quite convinced this type of placement is a very good option for most people.

Let me elaborate my position.

First, it is important to understand that the early reflection from the loudspeaker to the wall behind it will cause an interference pattern with the direct sound of the loudspeaker - this is a fact regardless of the distance between the loudspeaker and the wall - i.e. close to wall placement will not eliminate the interference.

What does change as we change the distance is:
  • Delay between the direct sound and the early reflection,
  • Frequency where the interference pattern starts, and
  • How deep the nulls / how high the peaks are in the interference pattern.
We call this interference SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interference Response), and it applies to all boundaries (walls, ceiling, floor) around a loudspeaker, not just the wall behind it.

Here's an illustration from the Genelec article I linked to previously:
monitorplacement_cancellation.jpg



The main principle is that as we move the loudspeaker further from a wall the first dip in the response will move to a lower frequency and become deeper / more severe, and as we move it closer to a wall the first dip in the response will move to a higher frequency and become shallower / less severe.

Now, let's try to be pragmatic and calculate the first few SBIR null/peak frequencies for various distances from the wall:
View attachment 19606

The top row shows how close the front face of the loudspeaker needs to be to the wall to push the first SBIR null above 20kHz (i.e. the commonly accepted human hearing limit). As you can see, the distance to achieve this is only 4mm, meaning that the loudspeaker body would need to be in the wall.

Note that this is why soffit mounting of loudspeakers (i.e. installation where the loudspeaker front face is flush with the wall) is considered the ideal and is used widely in professional recording studios - when the loudspeaker front face is flush with the wall the SBIR frequencies will go to so high a frequency they will effectively be out of the human audible range.​

In other words, no box speaker can go that close to the wall behind it in most practical scenarios because the typical bookshelf speaker box depth is usually 30-50cm. Here I assume most people won't be willing to do construction work to place their speakers.
If we also assume additional ~5cm distance for back port to work properly, the realistic distance for many people will be 35-55cm from front face of the loudspeaker to the wall behind it. As you can see from the table will put the first SBIR null/dip between about 150-300Hz.

The table above should also illustrate that by pushing the loudspeaker away from the wall we push the SBIR interference to a lower frequency and spread it over a wider frequency range.

As you can see, having the loudspeaker more than about 0,6m from the wall behind it will put the first/main SBIR null/dip right in the upper bass (80-150Hz), where a lot of the energy is in many mixes. This dip will also be more severe (i.e. deeper) than the one caused by closer to wall placement.

This is why placing loudspeakers such that their front face is >0,6m from the wall behind is usually not recommended. This is also why for full-range loudspeakers (i.e. loudspeakers used without subwoofers) it is recommended to place them close to the wall behind them.

Now notice that for speaker placement >1,1m from the wall the first SBIR dip gets below ~80Hz.
If you have your loudspeakers high-passed at 80Hz (e.g. because you have a subwoofer with 80Hz crossover) then in this case the first SBIR dip goes out of the operating range of the loudspeaker - which is great! While this doesn't solve the subsequent SBIR peaks and dips, the 1st dip is the deepest and the most audibly offending.

This is why speaker placement >1,1m from the wall is recommended for systems crossed to a sub at 80Hz. In this case the sub is recommended to be placed as close as possible to a wall to keep the subwoover SBIR null/dip above 80Hz. In this way the main SBIR nulls of both the loudspeakers and the subwoofer are outside of their operating ranges - making this the second-best placement option (i.e. behind soffit mounting loudspeakers).

However, the problem with this is that having loudspeakers >1,1m into the room is quite intrusive and not really an option for most people for practical reasons.
Note that pushing the loudspeakers close to the wall behind is still an acceptable (but slightly worse) alternative, for the same reasons as explained above. It may be an acceptable compromise to many for practical reasons.

As we can see, neither placement option 1 (soffit mounting loudspeakers) nor option 2 (loudspeakers >1,1m into the room + a well integrated subwoofer) may be practical for most people.
On the other hand, placement close to the wall behind is a reasonable compromise that works similarly well with and without subwoofers, and is not physically intrusive.

Now let me come back to your suggestion to add acoustic treatment to the back wall. The intention here would to absorb the early reflection from the back of the loudspeaker and thereby avoid the SBIR interference altogether.

First, let's see how the back reflection spectrum actually looks like compared to the direct sound for two different box-type front-firing loudspeakers (blue is the direct sound, green is the back reflection, solid lines belong to speaker 1, and dashed lines belong to speaker 2; source):
View attachment 19607
Since most commercial loudspeaker designs are not omnidirectional, the spectrum of the back reflection will be decreasing with frequency - which is what we see in this plot too for both speakers. The slope of this decrease depends on loudspeaker directivity - wide directivity designs (speaker 1) will decrease slower, while narrow directivity designs (speaker 2) will decrease faster with frequency.

We can see that in both speakers by about 1000Hz the back reflection is already attenuated by about -10dB compared to the direct sound. This explains why we see that SBIR interference becomes less severe as it is pushed up in frequency - the back reflection has less energy and therefore less influence on the total sound heard at the main listening position.

This also means that if we are to try and absorb the back reflection we need absorbers that have high absorption below 1000Hz, and especially high absorption at the frequency of the first / main SBIR null.

On the other hand, typical porous absorbers work well at high frequencies but poorly at low frequencies. So if we wish to have any theoretical chance of minimizing the SBIR dip via acoustic treatment we need to push the loudspeaker close to the wall behind so that the SBIR null goes as high as possible in frequency.

Now let's looks at the sound absorption coefficient of some commonly used acoustic panels (source):
b0UzScENRJeyiizqoGTT_Glass_Fiber_Vs._Foam_Graph.png

As you can see, even 10cm thick acoustic foam is not very efficient <300Hz, and such thickness won't even fit behind the loudspeaker if we pushed it close enough to the wall to put the SBIR dip >200Hz.
Mineral/glass wool panels are much more efficient at these frequencies, but again the thickness required to be efficient <300Hz make them difficult to place behind a loudspeaker when placed close to the wall behind.

If you push the loudspeaker further from the wall you will be able to place thicker absorption panels, but then the SBIR dip will move lower in frequency and unfortunately it will again end up below the panel operating range. :confused:
While perhaps not impossible, this should illustrate that absorbing the back reflection will be challenging at the very least.

Not to mention that most people probably don't want to have 10cm thick acoustic panels in their living rooms...

Having all of the above in mind, I stand behind my recommendation to place loudspeakers close to the wall behind them. It is IMHO a reasonable compromise that sounds quite good (even if not the best), while not being very intrusive in residential spaces.

At this point it is perhaps worth to mention cardioid bass loudspeakers. These are designed to minimize the level of the back reflection in the 100-300Hz range (example), and thereby decrease SBIR null/dip severity for close to wall placement. They are an amazing solution to these issues for residential spaces, but are unfortunately still quite expensive.

So to summarize, my placement recommendations are as follows:
  • The generic recommendation is to put loudspeakers close to the wall behind.
    • It is simple, sounds good and is non-physical-intrusive, but also not ideal.
  • For those that don't want compromises the following "better" options exists (from "best" to "worst"):
    1. Soffit mounting loudspeakers
    2. Cardioid bass loudspeaker placed close to a wall
    3. Front-firing loudspeakers <1,1m away from walls and integrated to subwoofer(s) crossed at 80Hz
    4. Front-firing loudspeakers close to the wall behind and try to absorb the SBIR dip
Hope this is useful!


Again I can agree only partially.
DSP will not solve everything, this I agree with completely, and I also agree that people shouldn't expect that using DSP/RC will magically solve all acoustic problems - regardless of how it is sometimes marketed.

But even in case of less-than-ideal placement DSP can solve some very audible issues and thereby improve the sound significantly. Note that we're much more sensitive to peaks than dips, so addressing peaks has huge value and DSP is pretty well-suited for that task. I disagree that this is a waste of time.

However a big issue with automated room correction / DSP is that it can also try to correct issues that simply aren't there and thereby can also make the sound significantly worse. Unfortunately we're still at a point where significant competence is needed from the end-user to tune the settings to make it work well. This is definitely why it can feel like a waste of time.

Finally, I fully agree that optimizing placement/layout and then carefully applying DSP is the optimal solution. This is perhaps great news for us audio enthusiasts, but I'm sure it is really discouraging for casual users who probably just want audio systems that are easy to setup and use and just sound good. :confused:
"bravo..."
;-)
(Unfortunately, the commonplace is that physical treatment efforts, even significant ones, rarely have the desired impact in the frequency zones that predominate our main problems ;-) )
 
While I agree with the main points of your post (i.e. close to wall placement has drawbacks and that treating the wall with absorption can be beneficial), I'm still quite convinced this type of placement is a very good option for most people.

Let me elaborate my position.

First, it is important to understand that the early reflection from the loudspeaker to the wall behind it will cause an interference pattern with the direct sound of the loudspeaker - this is a fact regardless of the distance between the loudspeaker and the wall - i.e. close to wall placement will not eliminate the interference.

What does change as we change the distance is:
  • Delay between the direct sound and the early reflection,
  • Frequency where the interference pattern starts, and
  • How deep the nulls / how high the peaks are in the interference pattern.
We call this interference SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interference Response), and it applies to all boundaries (walls, ceiling, floor) around a loudspeaker, not just the wall behind it.

Here's an illustration from the Genelec article I linked to previously:
monitorplacement_cancellation.jpg



The main principle is that as we move the loudspeaker further from a wall the first dip in the response will move to a lower frequency and become deeper / more severe, and as we move it closer to a wall the first dip in the response will move to a higher frequency and become shallower / less severe.

Now, let's try to be pragmatic and calculate the first few SBIR null/peak frequencies for various distances from the wall:
View attachment 19606

The top row shows how close the front face of the loudspeaker needs to be to the wall to push the first SBIR null above 20kHz (i.e. the commonly accepted human hearing limit). As you can see, the distance to achieve this is only 4mm, meaning that the loudspeaker body would need to be in the wall.

Note that this is why soffit mounting of loudspeakers (i.e. installation where the loudspeaker front face is flush with the wall) is considered the ideal and is used widely in professional recording studios - when the loudspeaker front face is flush with the wall the SBIR frequencies will go to so high a frequency they will effectively be out of the human audible range.​

In other words, no box speaker can go that close to the wall behind it in most practical scenarios because the typical bookshelf speaker box depth is usually 30-50cm. Here I assume most people won't be willing to do construction work to place their speakers.
If we also assume additional ~5cm distance for back port to work properly, the realistic distance for many people will be 35-55cm from front face of the loudspeaker to the wall behind it. As you can see from the table will put the first SBIR null/dip between about 150-300Hz.

The table above should also illustrate that by pushing the loudspeaker away from the wall we push the SBIR interference to a lower frequency and spread it over a wider frequency range.

As you can see, having the loudspeaker more than about 0,6m from the wall behind it will put the first/main SBIR null/dip right in the upper bass (80-150Hz), where a lot of the energy is in many mixes. This dip will also be more severe (i.e. deeper) than the one caused by closer to wall placement.

This is why placing loudspeakers such that their front face is >0,6m from the wall behind is usually not recommended. This is also why for full-range loudspeakers (i.e. loudspeakers used without subwoofers) it is recommended to place them close to the wall behind them.

Now notice that for speaker placement >1,1m from the wall the first SBIR dip gets below ~80Hz.
If you have your loudspeakers high-passed at 80Hz (e.g. because you have a subwoofer with 80Hz crossover) then in this case the first SBIR dip goes out of the operating range of the loudspeaker - which is great! While this doesn't solve the subsequent SBIR peaks and dips, the 1st dip is the deepest and the most audibly offending.

This is why speaker placement >1,1m from the wall is recommended for systems crossed to a sub at 80Hz. In this case the sub is recommended to be placed as close as possible to a wall to keep the subwoover SBIR null/dip above 80Hz. In this way the main SBIR nulls of both the loudspeakers and the subwoofer are outside of their operating ranges - making this the second-best placement option (i.e. behind soffit mounting loudspeakers).

However, the problem with this is that having loudspeakers >1,1m into the room is quite intrusive and not really an option for most people for practical reasons.
Note that pushing the loudspeakers close to the wall behind is still an acceptable (but slightly worse) alternative, for the same reasons as explained above. It may be an acceptable compromise to many for practical reasons.

As we can see, neither placement option 1 (soffit mounting loudspeakers) nor option 2 (loudspeakers >1,1m into the room + a well integrated subwoofer) may be practical for most people.
On the other hand, placement close to the wall behind is a reasonable compromise that works similarly well with and without subwoofers, and is not physically intrusive.

Now let me come back to your suggestion to add acoustic treatment to the back wall. The intention here would to absorb the early reflection from the back of the loudspeaker and thereby avoid the SBIR interference altogether.

First, let's see how the back reflection spectrum actually looks like compared to the direct sound for two different box-type front-firing loudspeakers (blue is the direct sound, green is the back reflection, solid lines belong to speaker 1, and dashed lines belong to speaker 2; source):
View attachment 19607
Since most commercial loudspeaker designs are not omnidirectional, the spectrum of the back reflection will be decreasing with frequency - which is what we see in this plot too for both speakers. The slope of this decrease depends on loudspeaker directivity - wide directivity designs (speaker 1) will decrease slower, while narrow directivity designs (speaker 2) will decrease faster with frequency.

We can see that in both speakers by about 1000Hz the back reflection is already attenuated by about -10dB compared to. the direct sound. This explains why we see that SBIR interference becomes less severe as it is pushed up in frequency - the back reflection has less energy and therefore less influence on the total sound heard at the main listening position.

This also means that if we are to try and absorb the back reflection we need absorbers that have high absorption below 1000Hz, and especially high absorption at the frequency of the first / main SBIR null.

On the other hand, typical porous absorbers work well at high frequencies but poorly at low frequencies. So if we wish to have any theoretical chance of minimizing the SBIR dip via acoustic treatment we need to push the loudspeaker close to the wall behind so that the SBIR null goes as high as possible in frequency.

Now let's looks at the sound absorption coefficient of some commonly used acoustic panels (source):
b0UzScENRJeyiizqoGTT_Glass_Fiber_Vs._Foam_Graph.png

As you can see, even 10cm thick acoustic foam is not very efficient <300Hz, and such thickness won't even fit behind the loudspeaker if we pushed it close enough to the wall to put the SBIR dip >200Hz.
Mineral/glass wool panels are much more efficient at these frequencies, but again the thickness required to be efficient <300Hz make them difficult to place behind a loudspeaker when placed close to the wall behind.

If you push the loudspeaker further from the wall you will be able to place thicker absorption panels, but then the SBIR dip will move lower in frequency and unfortunately it will again end up below the panel operating range. :confused:
While not impossible, this should illustrate that absorbing the back reflection will be challenging at the very least.

Not to mention that most people probably don't want to have 10cm thick acoustic panels in their living rooms...

Having all of the above in mind, I again stand behind my recommendation to place loudspeakers close to the wall behind them. It is IMHO a reasonable compromise that sounds quite good (even if not the best), while not being very intrusive in residential spaces.

At this point it is perhaps worth to mention cardioid bass loudspeakers. These are designed to minimize the level of the back reflection in the 100-300Hz range, and thereby decrease SBIR null/dip severity for close to wall placement. They are an amazing solution to these issues for residential spaces, but are unfortunately still quite expensive.

So to summarize, my placement recommendations are as follows:
  • The generic recommendation is to put loudspeakers close to the wall behind. It is simple, sounds good and is non-physical-intrusive, but also not ideal.
  • For those that don't want compromises the following "better" options exists (from "best" to "worst"):
    1. Soffit mounting loudspeakers
    2. Cardioid bass loudspeaker placed close to a wall
    3. Front-firing loudspeakers <1,1m away from walls and integrated to subwoofer(s) crossed at 80Hz
    4. Front-firing loudspeakers close to the wall behind and try to absorb the SBIR dip
Hope this is useful!


Again I can agree only partially.
DSP will not solve everything, this I agree with completely, and I also agree that people shouldn't expect that using DSP/RC will magically solve all acoustic problems - regardless of how it is sometimes marketed.

But even in case of less-than-ideal placement DSP can solve some very audible issues and thereby improve the sound significantly. Note that we're much more sensitive to peaks than dips, so addressing peaks has huge value and DSP is pretty well-suited for that task. I disagree that this is a waste of time.

A big issue with automated room correction / DSP is that it can also try to correct issues that simply aren't there and thereby make the sound significantly worse. Unfortunately we're still at a point where significant competence is needed from the end user to tune the settings to make it work well. This is definitely why it can feel like a waste of time.

Finally, I fully agree that optimizing placement/layout and then carefully applying DSP is the optimal solution. This is perhaps great for us audio enthusiasts, but I'm sure it is really discouraging for casual users who probably just want audio systems that are easy to setup and use and just sound good.
Hi,
Wow you have a lot of knowledge, you must be a sound engineer. Maybe a question here from someone who has a lack of this kind of technical things. Before I followed your recommendation and when I did a RC measurement I placed my bookshelf speakers 5 cm from the back wall. But after the RC results I brought them back to the original position( 25 cm from the back wall). But although the sound result was great,if I read your post I think that was a a mistake, I had to keep my speakers 5cm from the wall. Right?
 
While I agree with the main points of your post (i.e. close to wall placement has drawbacks and that treating the wall with absorption can be beneficial), I'm still quite convinced this type of placement is a very good option for most people.

Let me elaborate my position.

First, it is important to understand that the early reflection from the loudspeaker to the wall behind it will cause an interference pattern with the direct sound of the loudspeaker - this is a fact regardless of the distance between the loudspeaker and the wall - i.e. close to wall placement will not eliminate the interference.

What does change as we change the distance is:
  • Delay between the direct sound and the early reflection,
  • Frequency where the interference pattern starts, and
  • How deep the nulls / how high the peaks are in the interference pattern.
We call this interference SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interference Response), and it applies to all boundaries (walls, ceiling, floor) around a loudspeaker, not just the wall behind it.

Here's an illustration from the Genelec article I linked to previously:
monitorplacement_cancellation.jpg



The main principle is that as we move the loudspeaker further from a wall the first dip in the response will move to a lower frequency and become deeper / more severe, and as we move it closer to a wall the first dip in the response will move to a higher frequency and become shallower / less severe.

Now, let's try to be pragmatic and calculate the first few SBIR null/peak frequencies for various distances from the wall:
View attachment 19606

The top row shows how close the front face of the loudspeaker needs to be to the wall to push the first SBIR null above 20kHz (i.e. the commonly accepted human hearing limit). As you can see, the distance to achieve this is only 4mm, meaning that the loudspeaker body would need to be in the wall.

Note that this is why soffit mounting of loudspeakers (i.e. installation where the loudspeaker front face is flush with the wall) is considered the ideal and is used widely in professional recording studios - when the loudspeaker front face is flush with the wall the SBIR frequencies will go to so high a frequency they will effectively be out of the human audible range.​

In other words, no box speaker can go that close to the wall behind it in most practical scenarios because the typical bookshelf speaker box depth is usually 30-50cm. Here I assume most people won't be willing to do construction work to place their speakers.
If we also assume additional ~5cm distance for back port to work properly, the realistic distance for many people will be 35-55cm from front face of the loudspeaker to the wall behind it. As you can see from the table will put the first SBIR null/dip between about 150-300Hz.

The table above should also illustrate that by pushing the loudspeaker away from the wall we push the SBIR interference to a lower frequency and spread it over a wider frequency range.

As you can see, having the loudspeaker more than about 0,6m from the wall behind it will put the first/main SBIR null/dip right in the upper bass (80-150Hz), where a lot of the energy is in many mixes. This dip will also be more severe (i.e. deeper) than the one caused by closer to wall placement.

This is why placing loudspeakers such that their front face is >0,6m from the wall behind is usually not recommended. This is also why for full-range loudspeakers (i.e. loudspeakers used without subwoofers) it is recommended to place them close to the wall behind them.

Now notice that for speaker placement >1,1m from the wall the first SBIR dip gets below ~80Hz.
If you have your loudspeakers high-passed at 80Hz (e.g. because you have a subwoofer with 80Hz crossover) then in this case the first SBIR dip goes out of the operating range of the loudspeaker - which is great! While this doesn't solve the subsequent SBIR peaks and dips, the 1st dip is the deepest and the most audibly offending.

This is why speaker placement >1,1m from the wall is recommended for systems crossed to a sub at 80Hz. In this case the sub is recommended to be placed as close as possible to a wall to keep the subwoover SBIR null/dip above 80Hz. In this way the main SBIR nulls of both the loudspeakers and the subwoofer are outside of their operating ranges - making this the second-best placement option (i.e. behind soffit mounting loudspeakers).

However, the problem with this is that having loudspeakers >1,1m into the room is quite intrusive and not really an option for most people for practical reasons.
Note that pushing the loudspeakers close to the wall behind is still an acceptable (but slightly worse) alternative, for the same reasons as explained above. It may be an acceptable compromise to many for practical reasons.

As we can see, neither placement option 1 (soffit mounting loudspeakers) nor option 2 (loudspeakers >1,1m into the room + a well integrated subwoofer) may be practical for most people.
On the other hand, placement close to the wall behind is a reasonable compromise that works similarly well with and without subwoofers, and is not physically intrusive.

Now let me come back to your suggestion to add acoustic treatment to the back wall. The intention here would to absorb the early reflection from the back of the loudspeaker and thereby avoid the SBIR interference altogether.

First, let's see how the back reflection spectrum actually looks like compared to the direct sound for two different box-type front-firing loudspeakers (blue is the direct sound, green is the back reflection, solid lines belong to speaker 1, and dashed lines belong to speaker 2; source):
View attachment 19607
Since most commercial loudspeaker designs are not omnidirectional, the spectrum of the back reflection will be decreasing with frequency - which is what we see in this plot too for both speakers. The slope of this decrease depends on loudspeaker directivity - wide directivity designs (speaker 1) will decrease slower, while narrow directivity designs (speaker 2) will decrease faster with frequency.

We can see that in both speakers by about 1000Hz the back reflection is already attenuated by about -10dB compared to the direct sound. This explains why we see that SBIR interference becomes less severe as it is pushed up in frequency - the back reflection has less energy and therefore less influence on the total sound heard at the main listening position.

This also means that if we are to try and absorb the back reflection we need absorbers that have high absorption below 1000Hz, and especially high absorption at the frequency of the first / main SBIR null.

On the other hand, typical porous absorbers work well at high frequencies but poorly at low frequencies. So if we wish to have any theoretical chance of minimizing the SBIR dip via acoustic treatment we need to push the loudspeaker close to the wall behind so that the SBIR null goes as high as possible in frequency.

Now let's looks at the sound absorption coefficient of some commonly used acoustic panels (source):
b0UzScENRJeyiizqoGTT_Glass_Fiber_Vs._Foam_Graph.png

As you can see, even 10cm thick acoustic foam is not very efficient <300Hz, and such thickness won't even fit behind the loudspeaker if we pushed it close enough to the wall to put the SBIR dip >200Hz.
Mineral/glass wool panels are much more efficient at these frequencies, but again the thickness required to be efficient <300Hz make them difficult to place behind a loudspeaker when placed close to the wall behind.

If you push the loudspeaker further from the wall you will be able to place thicker absorption panels, but then the SBIR dip will move lower in frequency and unfortunately it will again end up below the panel operating range. :confused:
While perhaps not impossible, this should illustrate that absorbing the back reflection will be challenging at the very least.

Not to mention that most people probably don't want to have 10cm thick acoustic panels in their living rooms...

Having all of the above in mind, I stand behind my recommendation to place loudspeakers close to the wall behind them. It is IMHO a reasonable compromise that sounds quite good (even if not the best), while not being very intrusive in residential spaces.

At this point it is perhaps worth to mention cardioid bass loudspeakers. These are designed to minimize the level of the back reflection in the 100-300Hz range (example), and thereby decrease SBIR null/dip severity for close to wall placement. They are an amazing solution to these issues for residential spaces, but are unfortunately still quite expensive.

So to summarize, my placement recommendations are as follows:
  • The generic recommendation is to put loudspeakers close to the wall behind.
    • It is simple, sounds good and is non-physical-intrusive, but also not ideal.
  • For those that don't want compromises the following "better" options exists (from "best" to "worst"):
    1. Soffit mounting loudspeakers
    2. Cardioid bass loudspeaker placed close to a wall
    3. Front-firing loudspeakers <1,1m away from walls and integrated to subwoofer(s) crossed at 80Hz
    4. Front-firing loudspeakers close to the wall behind and try to absorb the SBIR dip
Hope this is useful!


Again I can agree only partially.
DSP will not solve everything, this I agree with completely, and I also agree that people shouldn't expect that using DSP/RC will magically solve all acoustic problems - regardless of how it is sometimes marketed.

But even in case of less-than-ideal placement DSP can solve some very audible issues and thereby improve the sound significantly. Note that we're much more sensitive to peaks than dips, so addressing peaks has huge value and DSP is pretty well-suited for that task. I disagree that this is a waste of time.

However a big issue with automated room correction / DSP is that it can also try to correct issues that simply aren't there and thereby can also make the sound significantly worse. Unfortunately we're still at a point where significant competence is needed from the end-user to tune the settings to make it work well. This is definitely why it can feel like a waste of time.

Finally, I fully agree that optimizing placement/layout and then carefully applying DSP is the optimal solution. This is perhaps great news for us audio enthusiasts, but I'm sure it is really discouraging for casual users who probably just want audio systems that are easy to setup and use and just sound good. :confused:
Great post 👍
How would you measure the distance of a subwoofer from the wall? They tend to be deeper than main speakers and some are downward firing.
 
While I agree with the main points of your post (i.e. close to wall placement has drawbacks and that treating the wall with absorption can be beneficial), I'm still quite convinced this type of placement is a very good option for most people.

Let me elaborate my position.

First, it is important to understand that the early reflection from the loudspeaker to the wall behind it will cause an interference pattern with the direct sound of the loudspeaker - this is a fact regardless of the distance between the loudspeaker and the wall - i.e. close to wall placement will not eliminate the interference.

What does change as we change the distance is:
  • Delay between the direct sound and the early reflection,
  • Frequency where the interference pattern starts, and
  • How deep the nulls / how high the peaks are in the interference pattern.
We call this interference SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interference Response), and it applies to all boundaries (walls, ceiling, floor) around a loudspeaker, not just the wall behind it.

Here's an illustration from the Genelec article I linked to previously:
monitorplacement_cancellation.jpg



The main principle is that as we move the loudspeaker further from a wall the first dip in the response will move to a lower frequency and become deeper / more severe, and as we move it closer to a wall the first dip in the response will move to a higher frequency and become shallower / less severe.

Now, let's try to be pragmatic and calculate the first few SBIR null/peak frequencies for various distances from the wall:
View attachment 19606

The top row shows how close the front face of the loudspeaker needs to be to the wall to push the first SBIR null above 20kHz (i.e. the commonly accepted human hearing limit). As you can see, the distance to achieve this is only 4mm, meaning that the loudspeaker body would need to be in the wall.

Note that this is why soffit mounting of loudspeakers (i.e. installation where the loudspeaker front face is flush with the wall) is considered the ideal and is used widely in professional recording studios - when the loudspeaker front face is flush with the wall the SBIR frequencies will go to so high a frequency they will effectively be out of the human audible range.​

In other words, no box speaker can go that close to the wall behind it in most practical scenarios because the typical bookshelf speaker box depth is usually 30-50cm. Here I assume most people won't be willing to do construction work to place their speakers.
If we also assume additional ~5cm distance for back port to work properly, the realistic distance for many people will be 35-55cm from front face of the loudspeaker to the wall behind it. As you can see from the table will put the first SBIR null/dip between about 150-300Hz.

The table above should also illustrate that by pushing the loudspeaker away from the wall we push the SBIR interference to a lower frequency and spread it over a wider frequency range.

As you can see, having the loudspeaker more than about 0,6m from the wall behind it will put the first/main SBIR null/dip right in the upper bass (80-150Hz), where a lot of the energy is in many mixes. This dip will also be more severe (i.e. deeper) than the one caused by closer to wall placement.

This is why placing loudspeakers such that their front face is >0,6m from the wall behind is usually not recommended. This is also why for full-range loudspeakers (i.e. loudspeakers used without subwoofers) it is recommended to place them close to the wall behind them.

Now notice that for speaker placement >1,1m from the wall the first SBIR dip gets below ~80Hz.
If you have your loudspeakers high-passed at 80Hz (e.g. because you have a subwoofer with 80Hz crossover) then in this case the first SBIR dip goes out of the operating range of the loudspeaker - which is great! While this doesn't solve the subsequent SBIR peaks and dips, the 1st dip is the deepest and the most audibly offending.

This is why speaker placement >1,1m from the wall is recommended for systems crossed to a sub at 80Hz. In this case the sub is recommended to be placed as close as possible to a wall to keep the subwoover SBIR null/dip above 80Hz. In this way the main SBIR nulls of both the loudspeakers and the subwoofer are outside of their operating ranges - making this the second-best placement option (i.e. behind soffit mounting loudspeakers).

However, the problem with this is that having loudspeakers >1,1m into the room is quite intrusive and not really an option for most people for practical reasons.
Note that pushing the loudspeakers close to the wall behind is still an acceptable (but slightly worse) alternative, for the same reasons as explained above. It may be an acceptable compromise to many for practical reasons.

As we can see, neither placement option 1 (soffit mounting loudspeakers) nor option 2 (loudspeakers >1,1m into the room + a well integrated subwoofer) may be practical for most people.
On the other hand, placement close to the wall behind is a reasonable compromise that works similarly well with and without subwoofers, and is not physically intrusive.

Now let me come back to your suggestion to add acoustic treatment to the back wall. The intention here would to absorb the early reflection from the back of the loudspeaker and thereby avoid the SBIR interference altogether.

First, let's see how the back reflection spectrum actually looks like compared to the direct sound for two different box-type front-firing loudspeakers (blue is the direct sound, green is the back reflection, solid lines belong to speaker 1, and dashed lines belong to speaker 2; source):
View attachment 19607
Since most commercial loudspeaker designs are not omnidirectional, the spectrum of the back reflection will be decreasing with frequency - which is what we see in this plot too for both speakers. The slope of this decrease depends on loudspeaker directivity - wide directivity designs (speaker 1) will decrease slower, while narrow directivity designs (speaker 2) will decrease faster with frequency.

We can see that in both speakers by about 1000Hz the back reflection is already attenuated by about -10dB compared to the direct sound. This explains why we see that SBIR interference becomes less severe as it is pushed up in frequency - the back reflection has less energy and therefore less influence on the total sound heard at the main listening position.

This also means that if we are to try and absorb the back reflection we need absorbers that have high absorption below 1000Hz, and especially high absorption at the frequency of the first / main SBIR null.

On the other hand, typical porous absorbers work well at high frequencies but poorly at low frequencies. So if we wish to have any theoretical chance of minimizing the SBIR dip via acoustic treatment we need to push the loudspeaker close to the wall behind so that the SBIR null goes as high as possible in frequency.

Now let's looks at the sound absorption coefficient of some commonly used acoustic panels (source):
b0UzScENRJeyiizqoGTT_Glass_Fiber_Vs._Foam_Graph.png

As you can see, even 10cm thick acoustic foam is not very efficient <300Hz, and such thickness won't even fit behind the loudspeaker if we pushed it close enough to the wall to put the SBIR dip >200Hz.
Mineral/glass wool panels are much more efficient at these frequencies, but again the thickness required to be efficient <300Hz make them difficult to place behind a loudspeaker when placed close to the wall behind.

If you push the loudspeaker further from the wall you will be able to place thicker absorption panels, but then the SBIR dip will move lower in frequency and unfortunately it will again end up below the panel operating range. :confused:
While perhaps not impossible, this should illustrate that absorbing the back reflection will be challenging at the very least.

Not to mention that most people probably don't want to have 10cm thick acoustic panels in their living rooms...

Having all of the above in mind, I stand behind my recommendation to place loudspeakers close to the wall behind them. It is IMHO a reasonable compromise that sounds quite good (even if not the best), while not being very intrusive in residential spaces.

At this point it is perhaps worth to mention cardioid bass loudspeakers. These are designed to minimize the level of the back reflection in the 100-300Hz range (example), and thereby decrease SBIR null/dip severity for close to wall placement. They are an amazing solution to these issues for residential spaces, but are unfortunately still quite expensive.

So to summarize, my placement recommendations are as follows:
  • The generic recommendation is to put loudspeakers close to the wall behind.
    • It is simple, sounds good and is non-physical-intrusive, but also not ideal.
  • For those that don't want compromises the following "better" options exists (from "best" to "worst"):
    1. Soffit mounting loudspeakers
    2. Cardioid bass loudspeaker placed close to a wall
    3. Front-firing loudspeakers <1,1m away from walls and integrated to subwoofer(s) crossed at 80Hz
    4. Front-firing loudspeakers close to the wall behind and try to absorb the SBIR dip
Hope this is useful!


Again I can agree only partially.
DSP will not solve everything, this I agree with completely, and I also agree that people shouldn't expect that using DSP/RC will magically solve all acoustic problems - regardless of how it is sometimes marketed.

But even in case of less-than-ideal placement DSP can solve some very audible issues and thereby improve the sound significantly. Note that we're much more sensitive to peaks than dips, so addressing peaks has huge value and DSP is pretty well-suited for that task. I disagree that this is a waste of time.

However a big issue with automated room correction / DSP is that it can also try to correct issues that simply aren't there and thereby can also make the sound significantly worse. Unfortunately we're still at a point where significant competence is needed from the end-user to tune the settings to make it work well. This is definitely why it can feel like a waste of time.

Finally, I fully agree that optimizing placement/layout and then carefully applying DSP is the optimal solution. This is perhaps great news for us audio enthusiasts, but I'm sure it is really discouraging for casual users who probably just want audio systems that are easy to setup and use and just sound good. :confused:
if the subject has already been pointed out in a much lighter way than your post...
the problem is your message will quickly get lost in limbo...
perhaps it would be good to create a section dedicated to these in-depth subjects, and rather synthetic...without necessarily dialogue etc...
but grouping this kind of message where everyone can browse and learn...


(there are in fact quite a few subjects covered by professional brands like Genelec Neumann etc...their sites often need to be dug for the literature, test signals that they offer)
;-)
 
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