My Ultra tests

[Griff]

Firstly must say thanks to @Brantome for letting this one run against his first instincts. Tricky being a moderator. I popped over to ASR to read what got @onlyoneme his limited ban, maybe an example of how not to do it, but while I tune into that site, and it has large amounts of great info, it's tendency to be bit dogmatic has stopped me joining. Much better outlook here.

To the point in hand, and most people have more experience in this than I do, while I can see where @Steve Woodhouse is coming from I can't get to the point that everything past a certain point of measurement sounds the same, in isolation or in all the combinations of its use.

 

[Smartplug]

Ideally if everything measure the same, why listeners don’t describe them to be the same. For instance, akm chipset describe that sound strong in bass and mid bass but mellow on treble which is the chary of velvet. Ess describe as analytical, bright extended high. As you can see from the data itself both measure really well their sinad, thd plus noise, frequency response are all great. So why do these reviewers saying these on specific chip? It doesn’t matter if it’s darko, cheap audio man, Erin and Andrew they say same thing.

 

[mlsstl]

So why do these reviewers saying these on specific chip? It doesn’t matter if it’s darko, cheap audio man, Erin and Andrew they say same thing.

Can't say that I'm surprised that when a particular chip (or other equipment or brand) gets an early reputation and others tend to hear the same thing from there on out. Once established, images endure. I happen to be of the opinion that the analog circuit that follows a DAC chip is much more important than the DAC IC's brand.

I'm waiting for my Ultra to arrive. I've got my system set up where I will be able to A/B the Ultra's DAC to my existing Schiit multibit DAC card. Looking forward to find out what I hear. I'm cautiously hoping the Ultra will allow me to simplify things.

 

[Steve Woodhouse]

Firstly must say thanks to @Brantome for letting this one run against his first instincts. Tricky being a moderator. I popped over to ASR to read what got @onlyoneme his limited ban, maybe an example of how not to do it, but while I tune into that site, and it has large amounts of great info, it's tendency to be bit dogmatic has stopped me joining. Much better outlook here.

To the point in hand, and most people have more experience in this than I do, while I can see where @Steve Woodhouse is coming from I can't get to the point that everything past a certain point of measurement sounds the same, in isolation or in all the combinations of its use.

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. There’s an unavoidable ‘feeling’, a little muffle in your head saying “Surely that can’t be right…can it?”

But that feeling has been shown to be myth countless times when properly tested.

Just in case you’ve never seen this before:

Matrix HiFi --> Blind testing high end full equipments

I mean there’s no way on God’s green earth that those two should sound even remotely similar. That should be the ‘go to’ set up to demonstrate just how much difference there should be.

 

[alpha_zulu]

Can't say that I'm surprised that when a particular chip (or other equipment or brand) gets an early reputation and others tend to hear the same thing from there on out. Once established, images endure. I happen to be of the opinion that the analog circuit that follows a DAC chip is much more important than the DAC IC's brand.

A similar example from another industry: Volkswagen-Group has been using DSG gearboxes with dry clutches for decades. These gearboxes have the reputation of being particularly susceptible, which they have not been for a long time. Millions of cars later, you can still read warnings in car forums not to buy such a car under any circumstances. Satisfied users who have no problems are labelled as exceptions.

 

[MKUltra]

A doctor once told me "don't read any papers that come with medicines because you will find the side-effects list, and if you read that, you will get side-effects".

According to the measurements in the original post, there isn't anything blatantly wrong with the Ultra.

You guys have been arguing about the meDACine side-effects list for many pages now...

 

[canard]

According to the measurements in the original post, there isn't anything blatantly wrong with the Ultra.

it's the opposite..

 

[bherren]

it's the opposite..

Do one thing I haven't managed to figure out I'd what in those measurements shows anything audible that would be problematic? I see some PSU noise but it seems below -110db ... Am I missing something?

 

[Griff]

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. There’s an unavoidable ‘feeling’, a little muffle in your head saying “Surely that can’t be right…can it?”

But that feeling has been shown to be myth countless times when properly tested.

Just in case you’ve never seen this before:

Matrix HiFi --> Blind testing high end full equipments

I mean there’s no way on God’s green earth that those two should sound even remotely similar. That should be the ‘go to’ set up to demonstrate just how much difference there should be.

Thanks @Steve Woodhouse had seen that test before. It is held up as proof that people can't tell the difference between systems, one high end and one less so. Is it assumed that the high end one 'measures better' as that is never mentioned.

I may be missing the point but the question posed was 'which one do you prefer?'. There is an assumption in the test that the high end system should be prefered by the testers but more choose the low end one or can't tell any difference.

The end conclusion made is that people couldn't tell the difference but that was not the question posed. The results say that 14 couldn't tell the difference and 14 preferred the low end system and only 10 preferred the high end one. Could that result not also point to 14 just quite liked the low end sound better and 10 liked the high end sound better and that 14 were not quite as 'golden ear'ed' as they thought?

 

[canard]

Do one thing I haven't managed to figure out I'd what in those measurements shows anything audible that would be problematic? I see some PSU noise but it seems below -110db ... Am I missing something?

the values become normal only with an lpf... which is not normal... simple...

 

[Steve Woodhouse]

Thanks @Steve Woodhouse had seen that test before. It is held up as proof that people can't tell the difference between systems, one high end and one less so. Is it assumed that the high end one 'measures better' as that is never mentioned.

I may be missing the point but the question posed was 'which one do you prefer?'. There is an assumption in the test that the high end system should be prefered by the testers but more choose the low end one or can't tell any difference.

The end conclusion made is that people couldn't tell the difference but that was not the question posed. The results say that 14 couldn't tell the difference and 14 preferred the low end system and only 10 preferred the high end one. Could that result not also point to 14 just quite liked the low end sound better and 10 liked the high end sound better and that 14 were not quite as 'golden ear'ed' as they thought?

I think that’s just people feeling they had to make a choice (even they they didn’t have to).

May I gently pull you up on one thing? It wasn’t high end vs ‘one less so’. It was high end against Uber-budget. Especially (in relation to this) in the DAC stage.

I have no doubt - absolutely zero - that, had they measured both, the differences would be significantly larger then those in post 1 here.

 

[canard]

I was made to look like an idiot....
with the old story of drc...there was definitely a ""problem""... (
It was enough to admit it and it was resolved in two clicks)


I insisted and they made me look like an idiot with the problem of distortion under 1k with the "more "..there was a v2 a month later..no more problems..


the case of the amp was more serious because I was committed to security and I also insisted heavily on it...little was expressed while measuring the problems was severe or more simply a lot had the power supply whistling etc..
wiim made a discreet reminder case by case until the January series...

so if you don't want to "see"... I won't come back to it... I'm not there to fulfill the role of the annoying -idiot... for my use my plus v2 is enough for me... not a """""ultra"""


all of you and wiim can thank strongly onlyoneme because in the last 3 cases he was the first on the net to take the measurements early and allow wiim not to wait too long to react...


have fun...

 

[Steve Woodhouse]

For me personally this medicine or planes analogies are at least...Braunschweig
There research and science is done by real scientists and it decides about life or death. If anything is as most as possible far from that it is about HiFi. "We" will have different approaches from then, now and till eternity. But nobody will die. Wait....sometimes music or gear makes me fear that. But there is every chance to survive. Take care about the real questions like

View attachment 9114

On those terms, of course you’re right. Totally different.

But ultimately, we have the scientific method. That the best thing we have for…anything.

The biggest issue is simply people insisting they’re left in the cave. Follow Plato.

 

[canard]

May be one or another remember my experience with (edited) an early but not pre-production Amp over a year ago. They "repaired" it silently and didn't want it to be mentioned. But 50 V on a housing from metal was not a petitesse. It was dangerous.

reminds me of your early feedback...


there were also the reboots observed following contact and electrostatic discharge which spoke volumes....

but my point was very much about the annoying role of the one who points and insists, obviously a little heavily, to try to get a reaction... there... if I don't want to be caught...
I won't go back...
for """"ultra""""" ...euh...
but num seem ok..good news ;-)

 

[onlyoneme]

A doctor once told me "don't read any papers that come with medicines because you will find the side-effects list, and if you read that, you will get side-effects".

According to the measurements in the original post, there isn't anything blatantly wrong with the Ultra.

You guys have been arguing about the meDACine side-effects list for many pages now...

These papers contain a large list of side-effects, but also notes about unknown effects for conditions not tested like pregnant women or children sometimes.

 

[Griff]

May I gently pull you up on one thing? It wasn’t high end vs ‘one less so’. It was high end against Uber-budget. Especially (in relation to this) in the DAC stage.

No problem, it was a deliberate statement on my part. I didn't take to the classification of something costing £700 (dollars) as, in your words, uber budget. My bias

 

[Steve Woodhouse]

No problem, it was a deliberate statement on my part. I didn't take to the classification of something costing £700 (dollars) as, in your words, uber budget. My bias

Totally get that.

But particularly, all else aside, the DAC in the DVD Player. You can pick that player up for under £10.

I agree with your initial sentiment, it’s fairly difficult to budge the idea out of our heads that, given enough money, you can’t build a better DAC. But please remember, the first CD player came out in 1982. This is a 42 year-old technology. DACs are a fixed problem; a finished technology. Whilst the early players weren’t without issue, they sounded ‘fine’. It’s not like they sounded like you had cotton wool in your ears.

 

[Musician]

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. There’s an unavoidable ‘feeling’, a little muffle in your head saying “Surely that can’t be right…can it?”

But that feeling has been shown to be myth countless times when properly tested.

Just in case you’ve never seen this before:

Matrix HiFi --> Blind testing high end full equipments

I mean there’s no way on God’s green earth that those two should sound even remotely similar. That should be the ‘go to’ set up to demonstrate just how much difference there should be.

This is an old test .

This is much newer !

"High-End" DAC Blind Listening Results - PART III: Subjective Descriptions

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

Consensus = yes people can hear differences between streamers .

 

[Jls]

This is an old test .

This is much newer !

"High-End" DAC Blind Listening Results - PART III: Subjective Descriptions

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

Consensus = yes people can hear differences between streamers .

I don’t see any consensus at all.

 

[onlyoneme]

Three devices with very similar sinad, which means for some people that they measure the same. And still audible differences.