Snake oil update! 🐍

The problem lies within the anecdotical approach.

I don't see nothing wrong with trying out stuff that "shouldn't make a difference, in theory". That's all fine.

It's the process of verification/falsification that's lacking. Posting "I did this and it sounded better" (usually, but not necessarily involving some pecuniary investment) will always trigger others to agree (especially when money has been spent). Still, the likelihood of you really talking about the same thing is small, to say the least, since all boundary conditions are different.

Of course, the it will also trigger the opposite camp, for understandable reasons.

If the results could be evaluated in double blind ABX tests, this could lay a foundation for a truely better understanding. Since this is not happening in Internet forums, the only meaning is for the one individual who should certainly pick whatever sounds better to him.

Just because somebody else agrees on the Internet means absolutely nothing.

The underlying claim almost affects every manufacturer in the industry and does not agree with the experience of people. Moreover there are no blind tests that prove there is no difference and you invoke blind tests all the time you and others with the same attitude like it is the gospel . Where are the comprehensive blind tests?

Don’t interfere and keep your opinions to yourself.

There are people so obsessed to prove that audiophiles are stupid and easily misled but what does this hide ? Maybe some form of complex or coping mechanism ? A messiah in disguise ? What ?
 
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Don’t interfere and keep your opinions to yourself.
Please bear in mind the group rules and my comment #50 above.

Can I repeat to everyone in this thread - let's all cool our jets and desist from making pointed and unfriendly comments like above. Any further comments of this ilk will be deleted without comment.

If a particular member's opinion constantly irritates you, then it's within your power to ignore them and their future comments by simply clicking on their name and choosing "ignore"...
 
Peace to everyone.

Please take a step back, because I think people are getting upset about things which are inevitable.

Even if we didn’t have any objectivist/subjectivist split, is someone claimed a particular DAC sound better, there’d be people disagreeing.

There are two sides to this. So side one, objectivists will argue if someone makes a claim which appears to be contrary to the known science. Side two is that, if someone feels they hear a difference which is contrary to what objectivists note should be inaudible, that they’re not being believed.

I personally have no issue either way. If someone claims something that should be impossible, they should expect that to be (politely) challenged. On the other hand, if someone says something shouldn’t be audible, they should expect that someone else might pop up and claim they can hear a difference.

None of that bothers or upsets me.

You make claim, either way, expect to be challenged on that. I mean, this is a public hi-fi forum.

Some people seem to think they can post saying they can hear a difference if they wear yellow underwear, and gave the right from anyone banned from saying “Now hang on…”.

I certainly don’t expect anyone to be banned from challenging that. And I don’t expect anyone to be banned from stating they can hear something if they feel they do.

Can we not head to a status where anyone can say whatever they want, and no one is allowed to disagree.
 

When I'm very tired, I remember this song and listen to it quietly.

Decades ago, when I first heard this song on an FM station, I remember tears welling up in my eyes for some reason. At that time, I was just happy to listen to music, and I didn't care about the sound quality.

Actually, I didn't even know the word "sound quality". 🤗
 

When I'm very tired, I remember this song and listen to it quietly.

Decades ago, when I first heard this song on an FM station, I remember tears welling up in my eyes for some reason. At that time, I was just happy to listen to music, and I didn't care about the sound quality.

Actually, I didn't even know the word "sound quality". 🤗
It is fairly admitted that this type of "pleasure" is inversely proportional to the amount of energy invested in "hifi"..
:cool: :p
 
Guys, this is veering far away from the thrust of this thread which was subjective views of changes being made to someone's system.

I've noted that whenever we get too deeply involved in discussions which as I've said before are best fought on the battlefields of ASR, that the usual bonhomie and friendly discourse we can have on this forum takes a nosedive. Even on ASR where you'd think there'd be a general agreement on such matters, there's a thread on how can DACs have a different sound signature if they measure as transparent that runs to 416 (yes, 416) pages. I'd rather discussions like that stayed there and that I don't have to suspend another thread here because of ill feelings engendered by such debates.

Thanks

 
I totally agree. But as long as that’s evenly applied to both sides.

If someone asks “Will a different/more expensive DAC/streamer sound better!” are we really expected to follow a convention where people who believe it will can say so, but people who believe it can’t aren’t allowed to say so?
 
I totally agree. But as long as that’s evenly applied to both sides.

If someone asks “Will a different/more expensive DAC/streamer sound better!” are we really expected to follow a convention where people who believe it will can say so, but people who believe it can’t aren’t allowed to say so?
The point is to let people have their own ideas to exchange with each other. When someone comes along and starts preaching their opinions as gospel it comes across in a condescending way. That has the effect of putting people off leading to angry posts. I assume that you've seen threads closed down. This is not normal.
 
The point is to let people have their own ideas to exchange with each other. When someone comes along and starts preaching their opinions as gospel it comes across in a condescending way. That has the effect of putting people off leading to angry posts. I assume that you've seen threads closed down. This is not normal.

I think you’ve fallen into the trap of, if it’s something you agree with it’s a valid opinion vs if it’s something you disagree with it’s preaching.

Threads have not been closed solely due to my comments. If my comments were out of order, they’d be deleted or I’d be banned, and the thread allowed to continue.

Your post singularly fails to answer my point. Are objectivists to be silenced and subjectivists not?
 
I think you’ve fallen into the trap of, if it’s something you agree with it’s a valid opinion vs if it’s something you disagree with it’s preaching.

Threads have not been closed solely due to my comments. If my comments were out of order, they’d be deleted or I’d be banned, and the thread allowed to continue.

Your post singularly fails to answer my point. Are objectivists to be silenced and subjectivists not?
There you go again. I'm not biting.
 
There is The Gospel of Golden Ears and Damned Measurements, and another one of Blessed Measurements and Fallen Subjectivists.
And then there are those that are infidels to both religions! :devilish:

Haha, I really was trying to build a bridge with this thread guys, and get a few laughs like @hoohoohoo ngl... 😂
But anyways imo there's no need for arbitrary borders between objectivist vs subjectivist thinking. Can't we use both and accept the limitations of each?! 🤔 (even if we disagree with the degree of the limitations!! 😎 🌶️ )a

Like for example - in room acoustic treatment: very few will argue with the fact that there are objective principles guiding the whole process and that the benefits are clear. But because rooms and systems are so variable, we still have to end up tuning rooms by ear with trial and error of placement of the various acoustic treatments - more of a subjective art. Cos even despite all we know and all the modeling we can perform beforehand - there are still unpredictable parts of the equation to getting a venue/listening room to sound "just right".

I agree with @Brantome + @Matterhorn . Let's keep things chill and open + try finding common ground wherever possible. Enough space for dissenting voices to exist but without it getting too spicy for the corporate overlords to ban any of us 😝

(I'm gonna keep posting updates here until the mods tell me not to - I'm accepting prototype WiiM mini v2s as a bribe to stop, in case you were wondering! :sneaky:)
 
Please maintain a polite and respectful tone in our conversations in this thread. Your cooperation in this matter will be highly appreciated. Otherwise, if we feel like it's not going in that direction, we'll have to close this thread. Thank you.
 
ok, so now that the dust has settled a bit, thought i'd pop in with an update... please don't shoot me, it's not a snake oil update 🔫 (one of those is coming very soon, and i promise to anyone who cares it's gonna be a good one! ;) )

more of just an expansion on stuff that keeps coming up in other threads but i don't wanna pollute them with my blasphemous ideas! :devilish:
to those that are clearly in one church OR other (most people on these forums seem to be measurementphiles 👀 ), please look away, go "enjoy the music" or whatever you need to do to keep calm before reading this! 🧘‍♂️ 🙏 (mods please don't ban me and @ WiiM team - the offer to shut me up with free prototype mini v2 or ultra is still on the table)

anyways, been catching up on scientific audiophile's youtube content (will refer to him as S|A from now on - very balanced and quite funny) and he's pointing out an issue that comes up a lot. many people on here seem to completely disregard my point when i refer to the "limitations of measurements" (or how we apply them). :confused:


in his videos on the WiiM amp and the Fosi audio za3 + v3 - S|A points out important measurements that many reviewers almost never perform (erin's audio corner does some like the pink noise test on amps) and the ways that manufacturers can "game the system" (does anyone remember the VW fiasco?!! :ROFLMAO: ) by making sure that the products test well under "standard ideal testing conditions" that they know the popular reviewers are going to use. (check out his short video on the za3 if you want to see a great example)

for example many of these new amps can easily play a 1 KHz test tone at the rated SPL through the speakers as mentioned on the spec sheet, but when a complex signal is used like pink noise (or multitone tests, or actual music) then they are NOT able to meet the specs they claim. obviously this affects every manufacturer to some degree or another - but it's much more rampant in the lower end class D amps than it is in the old-school class A or class A/B ones for example. this is what andrew robinson meant when he says "the problem with measurements is that they tend to show you the best WORST-case scenario" (and sometimes only that) in his "head to head" video of the WiiM amp vs onkyo AVR from @D1N0 's interesting thread...

the reason i need to point this out is because issues such as this would probably be quite apparent if you listened to an amp like this closely enough in a practical and realistc listening environment! you would maybe notice the lack of dynamics at medium listening levels, and obviously the lack of volume when you try to crank it up... i mean shocking, right?! 😱 you mean you actually need to listend to an audio reproduction device to evaluate it? haha!! 🙃

(as a side note - i ☣️ DO NOT ☣️ recommend listening to music loud (>75dB) for periods longer than a few minutes at a time WITH BREAKS!! acoustic damage that causes hearing loss is real, people - and i don't hear enough people talking about this tbh ☠️. it's worth pointing out much of these specific issues highlighted here might not apply to playing music at "normal" listening levels <70dB)

but anyways maybe these ideas can demonstrate the value of combining both listening and measurements when evaluating equipment, and trying to improve the application of both. and just to remind people that they are NOT mutually exclusive! after all - scientific thinkers must have an open enough mind to discover something new, right? all of this applies to snake oil stuff as well, by the way.
 
It is Friday lunchtime there, right?
Have you had a nip or two of the snake juice at the pub?
:LOL:
haha, i know right? :ROFLMAO:

got the afternoon off, so i'm enjoying a quick one before the weather (and my friends) betrays me!! i've got more time than sense today, that's for sure lmao
 
ok, so now that the dust has settled a bit, thought i'd pop in with an update... please don't shoot me, it's not a snake oil update 🔫 (one of those is coming very soon, and i promise to anyone who cares it's gonna be a good one! ;) )

more of just an expansion on stuff that keeps coming up in other threads but i don't wanna pollute them with my blasphemous ideas! :devilish:
to those that are clearly in one church OR other (most people on these forums seem to be measurementphiles 👀 ), please look away, go "enjoy the music" or whatever you need to do to keep calm before reading this! 🧘‍♂️ 🙏 (mods please don't ban me and @ WiiM team - the offer to shut me up with free prototype mini v2 or ultra is still on the table)

anyways, been catching up on scientific audiophile's youtube content (will refer to him as S|A from now on - very balanced and quite funny) and he's pointing out an issue that comes up a lot. many people on here seem to completely disregard my point when i refer to the "limitations of measurements" (or how we apply them). :confused:


in his videos on the WiiM amp and the Fosi audio za3 + v3 - S|A points out important measurements that many reviewers almost never perform (erin's audio corner does some like the pink noise test on amps) and the ways that manufacturers can "game the system" (does anyone remember the VW fiasco?!! :ROFLMAO: ) by making sure that the products test well under "standard ideal testing conditions" that they know the popular reviewers are going to use. (check out his short video on the za3 if you want to see a great example)

for example many of these new amps can easily play a 1 KHz test tone at the rated SPL through the speakers as mentioned on the spec sheet, but when a complex signal is used like pink noise (or multitone tests, or actual music) then they are NOT able to meet the specs they claim. obviously this affects every manufacturer to some degree or another - but it's much more rampant in the lower end class D amps than it is in the old-school class A or class A/B ones for example. this is what andrew robinson meant when he says "the problem with measurements is that they tend to show you the best WORST-case scenario" (and sometimes only that) in his "head to head" video of the WiiM amp vs onkyo AVR from @D1N0 's interesting thread...

the reason i need to point this out is because issues such as this would probably be quite apparent if you listened to an amp like this closely enough in a practical and realistc listening environment! you would maybe notice the lack of dynamics at medium listening levels, and obviously the lack of volume when you try to crank it up... i mean shocking, right?! 😱 you mean you actually need to listend to an audio reproduction device to evaluate it? haha!! 🙃

(as a side note - i ☣️ DO NOT ☣️ recommend listening to music loud (>75dB) for periods longer than a few minutes at a time WITH BREAKS!! acoustic damage that causes hearing loss is real, people - and i don't hear enough people talking about this tbh ☠️. it's worth pointing out much of these specific issues highlighted here might not apply to playing music at "normal" listening levels <70dB)

but anyways maybe these ideas can demonstrate the value of combining both listening and measurements when evaluating equipment, and trying to improve the application of both. and just to remind people that they are NOT mutually exclusive! after all - scientific thinkers must have an open enough mind to discover something new, right? all of this applies to snake oil stuff as well, by the way.
Let me quote myself:

A multitone signal which consists of 226 tones at -0.9 dBFS RMS level produces 19.2 Vrms output signal, which means 92 W output power for 4 ohm load.
A single sine 1 kHz signal at -0.9 dBFS RMS level produces 20 Vrms output signal, which means 100 W output power for 4 ohm load.

92 W vs 100 W - 8 W difference.
 
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