It’s advertised as lossless, are they lying then. All services advertise it as lossless not bitperfect which is a term adopted by the hifi side of things not from the providers.
No, why would that be?
Lossless and Bit Perfect are distinct concepts. A lossless stream doesn't necessarily imply that it's also Bit Perfect.
Lossless simply means that compression and transfer technologies are used to ensure that the output stream is identical to what was sent.
Bit Perfect indicates that there have been no manipulations of any kind between the source and the sent stream.
But this applies to all streaming services, not just radio.
Does Amazon Music claim to be "Bit Perfect"? Not at all, so there's no guarantee that the output stream is identical to the source.
In fact, it's quite unlikely to be true.
Qobuz is better. It caters to the group with the ears and equipment to hear what they are paying for. Everyone I know who has Qobuz has upgraded to external DAC’s and better headphones because of the quality.
Qobuz is better. It caters to the group with the ears and equipment to hear what they are paying for. Everyone I know who has Qobuz has upgraded to external DAC’s and better headphones because of the quality.
Here, this is good evidence that Amazon Music and Qobuz use the same streams, and rightly so, the author raises the question of whether this implies being Bit Perfect.
However, the conclusion they arrive at is rather weak: you don't need the manufacturer's consent to alter the timbre.
If that were the case, all radio stations, television networks, nightclubs, and so on would get into trouble.
The only thing we can say about that evidence, though very interesting, is that there is likely a common source that the major lossless streaming services rely on.
But nothing guarantees that this, in turn, is identical to the masters.
In fact, it's unlikely to be true because typical playback devices for physical media and streaming are different, and the parameters are calibrated to the device type.
So, a FLAC obtained, perhaps, through ripping a CD could very well have different characteristics from the one intended for streaming.
An indication of this is that there are often versions for streaming that are not available on physical media.
Over in LMS world there was work recently to leverage the ReplayGain data that is included in Qobuz which implies that by default there is no volume levelling applied in the API delivered stream. We think that LMS uses the same API as WiiM but can't be sure. Who knows what is applied in the Qobuz apps and Web player.
As Amazon doesn't play nicely with LMS I have never really put it to the test but I have tried Qobuz, Tidal, Deezer and Spotify. Leaving aside Spotify which is clearly not even CD quality my preference is in the order stated i.e. Qobuz, Tidal, Deezer.
Over in LMS world there was work recently to leverage the ReplayGain data that is included in Qobuz which implies that by default there is no volume levelling applied in the API delivered stream. We think that LMS uses the same API as WiiM but can't be sure. Who knows what is applied in the Qobuz apps and Web player.
As Amazon doesn't play nicely with LMS I have never really put it to the test but I have tried Qobuz, Tidal, Deezer and Spotify. Leaving aside Spotify which is clearly not even CD quality my preference is in the order stated i.e. Qobuz, Tidal, Deezer.
Qobuz doesn’t do any volume levelling in their app at all.
Roon only applies it if you turn on volume levelling. Same for Tidal and Spotify API streams don’t have it applied but the apps do but it can be defeated.
No, why would that be?
Lossless and Bit Perfect are distinct concepts. A lossless stream doesn't necessarily imply that it's also Bit Perfect.
Lossless simply means that compression and transfer technologies are used to ensure that the output stream is identical to what was sent.
Bit Perfect indicates that there have been no manipulations of any kind between the source and the sent stream.
Lossless is lossless you get what they have as a source, hence lossless. This itself will have been provided to the specs of the service mastered to a set LUFs that they accept. Bit-perfect means what is sent over the net is received bit for bit same as source at your end, and is up to your kit to ensure it is. Or sending a file internally from server to streamer will imply if it’s doing so bit perfectly or not.
Lossless is lossless you get what they have as a source, hence lossless. This itself will have been provided to the specs of the service mastered to a set LUFs that they accept. Bit-perfect means what is sent over the net is received bit for bit same as source at your end, and is up to your kit to ensure it is.
I wouldn’t apply the term bit perfect to what’s sent over the net - network protocols ensure what is received is exactly what’s sent, otherwise electronic file transfer would be pointless. Saying it’s bit perfect is a bit of a tautology. Applying bit perfect to how audio kit handles a received file is another matter.
Bit-perfect term has different meanings as it depends on the context. Just one quoted statement to show how it can vary:
"The RIGHT sample at the WRONG time, is the WRONG sample"
I wouldn’t apply the term bit perfect to what’s sent over the net - network protocols ensure what is received is exactly what’s sent, otherwise electronic file transfer would be pointless. Saying it’s bit perfect is a bit of a tautology. Applying bit perfect to how audio kit handles a received file is another matter.
I wouldn’t apply the term bit perfect to what’s sent over the net - network protocols ensure what is received is exactly what’s sent, otherwise electronic file transfer would be pointless. Saying it’s bit perfect is a bit of a tautology. Applying bit perfect to how audio kit handles a received file is another matter.
Indeed there are various level matching or bitrate manipulation based on different paywall levels and other potential variations brought by various streaming services, but even if Amazon Music or Qobuz doesn't alter the signal this way, there's also the effects from various masterings available for a lot of music, especially older material
One obvious example is between early CD pressings and more recent available copies, or also stream sources. Another example is between original CDs and "Greatest Hits" compilations with some of the same songs
One giant difference I've noticed is between the 1987 MCA CD of Lyle Lovett's "Pontiac" "If I Had A Boat" compared to the same song on the 2001 MCA Compilation CD "Anthology, Volume One: Cowboy Man"
There are so many examples but there is tons of compression applied to the compilation CD which makes it virtually unlistenable to me and if any streaming service offered the compressed remaster of the song, all the bitperfect on earth won't save it
Indeed there are various level matching or bitrate manipulation based on different paywall levels and other potential variations brought by various streaming services, but even if Amazon Music or Qobuz doesn't alter the signal this way, there's also the effects from various masterings available for a lot of music, especially older material
One obvious example is between early CD pressings and more recent available copies, or also stream sources. Another example is between original CDs and "Greatest Hits" compilations with some of the same songs
One giant difference I've noticed is between the 1987 MCA CD of Lyle Lovett's "Pontiac" "If I Had A Boat" compared to the same song on the 2001 MCA Compilation CD "Anthology, Volume One: Cowboy Man"
There are so many examples but there is tons of compression applied to the compilation CD which makes it virtually unlistenable to me and if any streaming service offered the compressed remaster of the song, all the bitperfect on earth won't save it
ah, I just replied to you cause you were the bottom of the thread...LoL
My post is an attempt to explain where more of the problems in streaming services are. Sometimes, the service doesn't give the mastering information of the song, but many I've seen do show a mastering date in brackets, for example
So, it is true that some services (yeah, Spotify) aren't even streaming "losslessly", but I believe that, of the services that do offer lossless streaming, I'd guess that many of those are "remastered" sources and there enlies the real problem with the quality
For really modern music, it's that damned autotune and overproduction that kills it, with often DR levels of less than 5 dB
So I wasn't really moving on your post, but I was really just trying to straighten out some thoughts I've seen through this thread
ah, I just replied to you cause you were the bottom of the thread...LoL
My post is an attempt to explain where more of the problems in streaming services are. Sometimes, the service doesn't give the mastering information of the song, but many I've seen do show a mastering date in brackets, for example
So, it is true that some services (yeah, Spotify) aren't even streaming "losslessly", but I believe that, of the services that do offer lossless streaming, I'd guess that many of those are "remastered" sources and there enlies the real problem with the quality
For really modern music, it's that damned autotune and overproduction that kills it, with often DR levels of less than 5 dB
So I wasn't really moving on your post, but I was really just trying to straighten out some thoughts I've seen through this thread
They only can work with what they get supplied by the studios and licensed to stream. Not much they can do as the studios always push the latest and what they feel is the greatest. To blame the services themselves is wrong as nothing they can do.
They only can work with what they get supplied by the studios and licensed to stream. Not much they can do as the studios always push the latest and what they feel is the greatest. To blame the services themselves is wrong as nothing they can do.
Absolutely
I don't blame Lyle Lovett either
It's MCA Records that are trying to get loud enough to be heard amongst all the other noise
Music is Art
Corporations eat art
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