To Sub or Unsub?

[JayFromManchester]

Hi all,

Not sure if this is the right place for this, if not let me know.

I recently bought a new stereo amp and speakers, my first step into hifi, they have replaced my AVR and surround speakers.

I use the wIIm Ultra and have done for a couple of years now, I used to use it through my AVR and I used the ultra as my phono stage.

Im now using the amps phono stage and the ultra purely as a streamer.

What I've noticed since the change is when I play vinyl it seems to lack a little in the low end, I listen to a lot of bass heavy music, it's not bad but I feel that maybe the amp and speakers would benefit from a sub.

When I stream through the ultra that is plugged into the amp the bass is there, maybe it's my eq or something else but it's definitely more bass heavy than when I play vinyl.

I'm wondering if I would be better reverting back to using the ultra as the phono stage or maybe using a sub.

I hope that makes some sense and any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[Eddie Spaghetti]

I also like bass-heavy music. Not the window-rattling hip-hop crap, I just like my music to sound full and be able to *feel* the bottom. That said, since I added a sub to my system many years ago, I will not go without one. Just my own experience and opinion. A good sub will add bottom that most speakers alone cannot deliver. It also takes that load off your main speakers and allows them to flourish in the audio range they’re best suited for, so everything just sounds better.

Just to add … it’s been awhile since I’ve done anything with vinyl, but my recollection is that your cartridge can have a lot to do with what you ultimately hear. It could cost a bit, but a good high-end cartridge might provide the fullness you feel you’re missing.

 

[JayFromManchester]

I also like bass-heavy music. Not the window-rattling hip-hop crap, I just like my music to sound full and be able to *feel* the bottom. That said, since I added a sub to my system many years ago, I will not go without one. Just my own experience and opinion. A good sub will add bottom that most speakers alone cannot deliver. It also takes that load off your main speakers and allows them to flourish in the audio range they’re best suited for, so everything just sounds better.

Just to add … it’s been awhile since I’ve done anything with vinyl, but my recollection is that your cartridge can have a lot to do with what you ultimately hear. It could cost a bit, but a good high-end cartridge might provide the fullness you feel you’re missing.

I think my cartridge choice is ok, it's not super hi end but it wasn't a cheap one either. My turntable is a technics 1200 and I use Ortofon Concorde music, I have red blue and bronze, currently using bronze.

I may try and set up the sub tomorrow and see what I think, my only concern was setting it up wrong and something going bang.

My amp has pre out and if I'm right I can connect the sub to the pre out?

 

[Doublej]

Unless you have some very large speakers, you'll likely benefit from adding a sub to your setup. If your amp has pre out connecting a subwoofer to it properly should not cause any issues. What model stereo amplifier do you have?

Depending on what else you have connected into your stereo amp, you might be able to connect your sources and a subwoofer to the Ultra and get the benefit of the Ultra's equalization and room correction.

 

[AlanB]

Hi all,

Not sure if this is the right place for this, if not let me know.

I recently bought a new stereo amp and speakers, my first step into hifi, they have replaced my AVR and surround speakers.

I use the wIIm Ultra and have done for a couple of years now, I used to use it through my AVR and I used the ultra as my phono stage.

Im now using the amps phono stage and the ultra purely as a streamer.

What I've noticed since the change is when I play vinyl it seems to lack a little in the low end, I listen to a lot of bass heavy music, it's not bad but I feel that maybe the amp and speakers would benefit from a sub.

When I stream through the ultra that is plugged into the amp the bass is there, maybe it's my eq or something else but it's definitely more bass heavy than when I play vinyl.

I'm wondering if I would be better reverting back to using the ultra as the phono stage or maybe using a sub.

I hope that makes some sense and any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks

Vinyl records have less bass than CDs due to the physical limitations of the format: low frequecies require wider, deeper grooves which take up more space reducing playtime. To fix this, records use RIAA equalisation to cut bass during recording; if the mastering or phono preamp isn't perfect, this results in less perceived bass compared to the consistent, full-range digital signal of a CD

 

[goodmore]

As already posted.....unless your speakers have large woofers you will benefit from a sub.

 

[harkpabst]

Normally I'm in the camp promoting subwoofers for stereo systems, but ...

When I stream through the ultra that is plugged into the amp the bass is there, maybe it's my eq or something else but it's definitely more bass heavy than when I play vinyl.

... if the bass is there when streaming, then it's not that your speakers are lacking and need a subwoofer. If your happy with the bass when streaming, would you want a sub to add more bass? Not knowing your EQ on the WiiM Ultra and why you added a pre-amp it's all very vague.

Generally speaking, subs are not intended to add more bass, but to extend the bass to lower frequencies and (ideally) to relieve the main speakers from some bass duties.

 

[d6jg]

I’m in the “no need for a sub for stereo” camp in most cases and while I sort of agree about vinyl having less bass capabilities than a CD I’d say this only really manifests itself on rare occasions.
I do have a sub in my office HiFi but only because it’s speakers are Wharfedale Cubes for space reasons and the thing that annoys me with this set up is if the phone rings and I have to turn the volume doen to speak to someone the sub disappears. It returns at a given volume threshold.
If you have decent floorstanders that give you the bass more naturally the volume reduction is simply that. Quieter bass but it’s still there.

 

[harkpabst]

... and the thing that annoys me with this set up is if the phone rings and I have to turn the volume doen to speak to someone the sub disappears.

Does it disappear because some sort of auto-off sets in and the sub comes back with a delay? That would simply be a case of badly implemented auto sensing (or could be mitigated if auto sensing can be disabled).

Or does the relative level between mains and sub change when turning down the volume? There's no acoustical reason for this unless the implementation is faulty and the electrical output levels don't stay in sync when controlling the volume. That would be an even bigger design flaw.

A third option could be that the comparison is between one system using dynamic loudness and another that does not. I'm pretty sure that this is nothing you would fall for, but should be kept in mind generally.

 

[d6jg]

Does it disappear because some sort of auto-off sets in and the sub comes back with a delay? That would simply be a case of badly implemented auto sensing (or could be mitigated if auto sensing can be disabled).

Or does the relative level between mains and sub change when turning down the volume? There's no acoustical reason for this unless the implementation is faulty and the electrical output levels don't stay in sync when controlling the volume. That would be an even bigger design flaw.

A third option could be that the comparison is between one system using dynamic loudness and another that does not. I'm pretty sure that this is nothing you would fall for, but should be kept in mind generally.

TBH I am not sure. The HiFi in question isn't for critical listening and I put the sub in because the bass from Wharfedale Cubes is .... almost nil. I only turn the volume down when the phone rings and then back up immediately the call is over. I think it is probably the auto-sensing but it (the sub) is almost inaccessible without a lot of work so I just live with it for now.

 

[AlanB]

I’m in the “no need for a sub for stereo” camp in most cases and while I sort of agree about vinyl having less bass capabilities than a CD I’d say this only really manifests itself on rare occasions.

True, although CD's have the potential to record lower bass frequencies than vinyl, it is the mastering that makes the biggest difference to perceived sound quality of either.

 

[MCG555]

Personally I think the impact of subs are bigger than anticipated at first. Maybe it is also psycho acoustics but when I switch the subs off (I have two - and they are always on) I have the impression that the sound in general (not just the bass) fills the room much less. The sound does not appear that spacial, that 3-dimensional anymore…
I would never go back to „no sub“.

 

[CptKaos]

cant imagine listening and enjoying my music without at least one sub

 

[BowsAndArrows]

i feel like a sub is almost always a positive addition to a system. so i agree with others for the most part who are recommending a sub in general... i'm not yet at @CptKaos level. but i do miss my sub if i turn it off. in my main system - i actually use my sub as bass management as the signal goes direct from the DAC to the sub - and it outputs a high-passed signal on to my integrated amp for the main speakers...

it is very odd that you are getting a markedly different sound when using your integrated amp as preamp vs using the wiim ultra. i would make sure that the difference is definitely there by double-checking a few times. there is no reason why there should be that much difference in the sound signature... if the difference is indeed present, then unless you are using EQ on the ultra for the phono input - then i can't really explain what's going on here...

 

[CptKaos]

i feel like a sub is almost always a positive addition to a system. so i agree with others for the most part who are recommending a sub in general... i'm not yet at @CptKaos level. but i do miss my sub if i turn it off. in my main system - i actually use my sub as bass management as the signal goes direct from the DAC to the sub - and it outputs a high-passed signal on to my integrated amp for the main speakers...

it is very odd that you are getting a markedly different sound when using your integrated amp as preamp vs using the wiim ultra. i would make sure that the difference is definitely there by double-checking a few times. there is no reason why there should be that much difference in the sound signature... if the difference is indeed present, then unless you are using EQ on the ultra for the phono input - then i can't really explain what's going on here...

I am running speaker level inputs to the SB1000Pro's and using them paired with my Swan 3.1A's as 4-way towers

 

[gazza1101]

Personally i think a good sub will improve the sound with most speakers if not all.

 

[hoohoohoo]

I’m in the “no need for a sub for stereo” camp in most cases and while I sort of agree about vinyl having less bass capabilities than a CD I’d say this only really manifests itself on rare occasions.
I do have a sub in my office HiFi but only because it’s speakers are Wharfedale Cubes for space reasons and the thing that annoys me with this set up is if the phone rings and I have to turn the volume doen to speak to someone the sub disappears. It returns at a given volume threshold.
If you have decent floorstanders that give you the bass more naturally the volume reduction is simply that. Quieter bass but it’s still there.

Also, it depends on the music being played whether a sub is needed. Some artists/genres are bass-heavy and sound better with appropriate equipment.

Similarly, my floorstanders dip down to 30 Hz, so no sub needed. But in my office, 48 Hz on a smalller set of floorstanders doesn't work, so a sub dipping down to 26 Hz helps round out the low end. I'm not noticing a roll-off of bass at low volumes, so it could be vendor-dependent.