Wiim, please make a Wiim amp Mega!

[Indydan]

Yes, I would like to see one!
I would like the following Wiim device to be offered.
Specs:
Same streamer and DAC as the Amp Ultra
150 Watts into 8 ohms of Class D (Hypex or Purifi modules)
Same functionality as Amp Ultra, possibility of Dirac.
Priced accordingly.

This Wiim would be a direct competitor to the Cambrdige EVO 150. Wiim could undercut them on price slightly.
I would run out to buy one!

 

[pieterv1]

So why not just buy a WiiM Ultra and add a NCx252MP based amp (or build your own)? This combination will have the exact functionality you're asking for and can be had for less than €1000 + it is easier to upgrade over time with an external DAC for example.

 

[EddNog]

So why not just buy a WiiM Ultra and add a NCx252MP based amp (or build your own)? This combination will have the exact functionality you're asking for and can be had for less than €1000 + it is easier to upgrade over time with an external DAC for example.

Yeah... WiiM Ultra + IOM Ultra would cover this.

-Ed

 

[Indydan]

I want everything in one box. No DIY.

 

[dangermouse]

I want everything in one box. No DIY.

 

[EddNog]

I want everything in one box. No DIY.

Guess not like me. Two streamers, a DAC, a preamp, a pair of monobloc amps, standmounts, stands, and a subwoofer.

 

[dominikz]

150 Watts into 8 ohms of Class D (Hypex or Purifi modules)

Note that with doubling of power we only get 3dB higher maximum output - which is a very minor increase in perceived loudness.
We'd need 10x higher amplifier power to get 10dB more output - which would be perceived about double as loud.

So going from 100W to 150W would give us only about 2dB higher output. IMHO that alone probably isn’t enough to warrant a HW update.

 

[EddNog]

Note that with doubling of power we only get 3dB higher maximum output - which is a very minor increase in perceived loudness.
We'd need 10x higher amplifier power to get 10dB more output - which would be perceived about double as loud.

So going from 100W to 150W would give us only about 2dB higher output. IMHO that alone probably isn’t enough to warrant a HW update.

A lot of people confuse gain for power. The WiiM amplifiers generally have gain on the lower end. They might be able to quell some of this noise about higher amp power by simply having a high gain option.

-Ed

 

[dominikz]

A lot of people confuse gain for power. The WiiM amplifiers generally have gain on the lower end. They might be able to quell some of this noise about higher amp power by simply having a high gain option.

-Ed

I agree.

WiiM streaming amps are designed to reach maximum power when volume is set to 100% and peaks reach 0dBFS - i.e. to avoid clipping at any cost.

Now given that streaming platforms normalize content to around -14 LUFS average, while many tracks have <10dB crest factor, we can see that a lot of the power available will often be unused.

Higher gain would indeed make the amp seem louder, but on the other hand could clip with high volume setting and loud content.

As most things in engineering, it is a balancing act.

Worth noting is that we *can already* increase the amp gain by configuring positive input pre-gain. But that again brings the same risk of clipping - not much different to a theoretical high-gain option.

 

[pieterv1]

Yeah... WiiM Ultra + IOM Ultra would cover this.

-Ed

Quite literally even, because the Evo 150 seems to use the same NC252MP module

 

[Deleted member 28380]

Note that with doubling of power we only get 3dB higher maximum output - which is a very minor increase in perceived loudness.
We'd need 10x higher amplifier power to get 10dB more output - which would be perceived about double as loud.

So going from 100W to 150W would give us only about 2dB higher output. IMHO that alone probably isn’t enough to warrant a HW update.

From a physical point of view you are 100% right, as usual.
Non the less, you are omitting power peaks and how they are dealt with by the amp.. Class-D amp’s nominal power ratings are basically equal to peak levels, no reserves.
Consequently every available (nominal) watt helps in class -D.
100 class-D watts into 8 ohms are very much over-rated by those who haven‘t tried it in their own systems. A properly designed 50 watts class- AB amp with a capable PS will do just as well, if not better - just to give a referrence on how to judge my former statement.

Hence I am not a big fan of TI TPA amps for full fledged lounge stereo systems. They undoubtedly have their place in smaller systems.
So the call for a Hypex or Purifi implementation isn‘t out of this world. I‘d even say go for 400 watts into 8 ohms, not just 150. People need to be willing to pay for it of course.

 

[dominikz]

From a physical point of view you are 100% right, as usual.
Non the less, you are omitting power peaks and how they are dealt with by the amp.. Class-D amp’s nominal power ratings are basically equal to peak levels, no reserves.
Consequently every available (nominal) watt helps in class -D.
100 class-D watts into 8 ohms are very much over-rated by those who haven‘t tried it in their own systems. A properly designed 50 watts class- AB amp with a capable PS will do just as well, if not better - just to give a referrence on how to judge my former statement.

I am aware of the differences in power headroom. But note that in case of WiiM Amp Ultra headroom is not as much of a factor because it is designed not to clip - i.e. with level set to 100% and 0dBFS peaks it reaches peak power, but doesn't go over - so it doesn't really require extra headroom like many class AB amps provide.

But it is absolutely true that some people require more than 100W of power, and that in some cases just a few dB extra is all that is needed. It is just that many people assume that because of the large number difference going from 100W to 150W is also much higher output increase than it is in practice, so I just wanted to address that.

So the call for a Hypex or Purifi implementation isn‘t out of this world. I‘d even say go for 400 watts into 8 ohms, not just 150. People need to be willing to pay for it of course.

That would be a much more meaningful update in power, IMO! Should result in +6dB extra output, which is significantly louder.

 

[Trowbridge]

Yes, I would like to see one!
I would like the following Wiim device to be offered.
Specs:
Same streamer and DAC as the Amp Ultra
150 Watts into 8 ohms of Class D (Hypex or Purifi modules)
Same functionality as Amp Ultra, possibility of Dirac.
Priced accordingly.

This Wiim would be a direct competitor to the Cambrdige EVO 150. Wiim could undercut them on price slightly.
I would run out to buy one!

Cant see Dirac ever being on a Wiim product as that would cancel out WiiM correction software

 

[DazST]

From a physical point of view you are 100% right, as usual.
Non the less, you are omitting power peaks and how they are dealt with by the amp.. Class-D amp’s nominal power ratings are basically equal to peak levels, no reserves.
Consequently every available (nominal) watt helps in class -D.
100 class-D watts into 8 ohms are very much over-rated by those who haven‘t tried it in their own systems. A properly designed 50 watts class- AB amp with a capable PS will do just as well, if not better - just to give a referrence on how to judge my former statement.

Hence I am not a big fan of TI TPA amps for full fledged lounge stereo systems. They undoubtedly have their place in smaller systems.
So the call for a Hypex or Purifi implementation isn‘t out of this world. I‘d even say go for 400 watts into 8 ohms, not just 150. People need to be willing to pay for it of course.

I'm not sure I properly understand the differences in power and "headroom" between class A/B and D amps. As a practical example, what observable difference could I expect between my class D Amp Ultra (100w) and class A/B Yamaha as501 (85w) in a main lounge system setup type scenario?

 

[Mr Ee]

I'm not sure I properly understand the differences in power and "headroom" between class A/B and D amps. As a practical example, what observable difference could I expect between my class D Amp Ultra (100w) and class A/B Yamaha as501 (85w) in a main lounge system setup type scenario?

Ok, I'll bite...
As ever, just my opinions / observations, however flawed they may be.

I used to have a Hegel H190, class A/B 150Wpc (8ohm) amp in my main setup, driving my Paradigm Founder 100F speakers.
Source was normally a Wiim Pro, coax to Hegel.
Sounded great. Sounded clean. Went very loud when I wanted it to, and was always in control.
By that I mostly mean the sound, especially the bass, stayed clean at high volumes / with sudden volume increases.

When I got the Amp Ultra I attached the Founders to it and sat down for a listen.
I had my preconceptions on how well (or not) this little box would cope / sound, particularly given my experience with a Wiim Amp Pro in this setup.
(Suffice to say here that the Amp Pro was terrible in this setup. I underlined that to emphasise this was in this setup!)

Long story short, I was amazed at how good the Amp Ultra sounded for all normal listening.
Still clean. Still detailed. Easily 'listenable' for hours.
I'd even say I'd have had a hard time telling it apart from the Hegel. Seriously.

But when I turned it up beyond this average / reasonable listening level it became evident that it was lacking something.
One of those things is gain - on some low-level recorded tracks even 100% volume wasn't amazingly loud.
On other (louder) tracks at loud volume it sounded 'constrained', like it was struggling to power the speakers, so the music sounded duller, with reduced dynamics and greatly reduced listenability that meant it was somewhat unpleasent at those volumes.

For those lower level recorded tracks, increasing the gain in the wiim app so that the volume didn't need to go to 100% didn't help. The bass particularly suffered here, sounding bloated / muddied. No longer 'clean'.

Whether any of this relates to how an Amp Ultra compares to your Yamaha I can't say!

But I will finish off by saying that the Amp Ultra is still in my main setup, attached to my Founders via a switch box, and I still use it for everyday listening as it's more than capable for that.
It also means the family can simply cast to it without having to understand how everything else needs to be set to use the "proper" amplifier.

 

[DazST]

Ok, I'll bite...
As ever, just my opinions / observations, however flawed they may be.

I used to have a Hegel H190, class A/B 150Wpc (8ohm) amp in my main setup, driving my Paradigm Founder 100F speakers.
Source was normally a Wiim Pro, coax to Hegel.
Sounded great. Sounded clean. Went very loud when I wanted it to, and was always in control.
By that I mostly mean the sound, especially the bass, stayed clean at high volumes / with sudden volume increases.

When I got the Amp Ultra I attached the Founders to it and sat down for a listen.
I had my preconceptions on how well (or not) this little box would cope / sound, particularly given my experience with a Wiim Amp Pro in this setup.
(Suffice to say here that the Amp Pro was terrible in this setup. I underlined that to emphasise this was in this setup!)

Long story short, I was amazed at how good the Amp Ultra sounded for all normal listening.
Still clean. Still detailed. Easily 'listenable' for hours.
I'd even say I'd have had a hard time telling it apart from the Hegel. Seriously.

But when I turned it up beyond this average / reasonable listening level it became evident that it was lacking something.
One of those things is gain - on some low-level recorded tracks even 100% volume wasn't amazingly loud.
On other (louder) tracks at loud volume it sounded 'constrained', like it was struggling to power the speakers, so the music sounded duller, with reduced dynamics and greatly reduced listenability that meant it was somewhat unpleasent at those volumes.

For those lower level recorded tracks, increasing the gain in the wiim app so that the volume didn't need to go to 100% didn't help. The bass particularly suffered here, sounding bloated / muddied. No longer 'clean'.

Whether any of this relates to how an Amp Ultra compares to your Yamaha I can't say!

But I will finish off by saying that the Amp Ultra is still in my main setup, attached to my Founders via a switch box, and I still use it for everyday listening as it's more than capable for that.
It also means the family can simply cast to it without having to understand how everything else needs to be set to use the "proper" amplifier.

That's interesting. I've had a similar feeling that my wiim ultra/yamaha as501 combo sounded a bit better at higher volumes, but have never done a proper test. I now have an Amp Ultra in my lounge for similar reasons to you: ease of use for others in the house. I've not been able to bring myself to sell the yammy though and have considered setting it back up in the lounge with a switch box, just so I can use it when I get the urge. It would require me to move the amp ultra into my office, and then use the ultra and vibelink as the main system in my lounge, and the ultra + yamaha as 'option B'.