Or, WiiM Amp Ultra II

[Haknuts]

@RyanWithWiiM

So I have spendt quite some time surveying which household amp to replace my 10y old Denon class D. Glad I did and not went the conventional way with a new Denon.

I have learned that PFPB (type technology) and HPF are essential features in a compact 2.0 and 2.1 setup. The Amp Ultra excels in features and amp tech specs in this price range.

From a consumer perspective though, it puzzles me why you did downgrade the DAC chip in the Amp? Was this a cost or marked policy decission?

For future amps please consider the ICEedge 400A2. Its frequency curves and >3X damping factor holds the speaker cone with 3 to 4 times the grip vs a standard TPA 3255 PFFB amp, and its extended bandwidth ensures that phase-shift artifacts are pushed beyond the range of human hearing.

Looking forward to hear your views on both.

Kind regards Håvar

 

[Aquaman]

From a consumer perspective though, it puzzles me why you did downgrade the DAC chip in the Amp? Was this a cost or marked policy decission?

What is it that you consider a downgrade?

 

[Haknuts]

@Aquaman

DAC Specification Comparison:

WiiM Ultra

• DAC Chip: ESS ES9038Q2M
• Architecture: Premium 32-bit Sabre
• SNR (Signal-to-Noise): 121 dB
• THD+N (Analog Out): -116 dB (0.00015%)
• Output Stage: Dedicated Line-Out
• Max Resolution: 32-bit / 384kHz

WiiM Amp Ultra

• DAC Chip: ESS ES9018K2M
• Architecture: Standard 32-bit Sabre
• SNR (Signal-to-Noise): 120 dB
• THD+N (Analog Out): -105 dB (0.0005%)
• Output Stage: Integrated into TPA3255
• Max Resolution: 32-bit / 192kHz

 

[Aquaman]

@Aquaman

DAC Specification Comparison:

WiiM Ultra

• DAC Chip: ESS ES9038Q2M
• Architecture: Premium 32-bit Sabre
• SNR (Signal-to-Noise): 121 dB
• THD+N (Analog Out): -116 dB (0.00015%)
• Output Stage: Dedicated Line-Out
• Max Resolution: 32-bit / 384kHz

WiiM Amp Ultra

• DAC Chip: ESS ES9018K2M
• Architecture: Standard 32-bit Sabre
• SNR (Signal-to-Noise): 120 dB
• THD+N (Analog Out): -105 dB (0.0005%)
• Output Stage: Integrated into TPA3255
• Max Resolution: 32-bit / 192kHz

Those are the specs of the AMP not the Amp Ultra.
This has the ESS 9039Q2M DAC.

 

[Aquaman]

Besides DACs are a solved problem. Even though it doesn‘t mean much, I cannot hear any difference in any DAC of the past 10 years.

 

[Haknuts]

@Aquaman
Tnx, I stand corrected. Some earlier marketing mentioned the ES9018K2M in the Ultra Amp, but the final production version was upgraded to the newer ES9039Q2M.

However, the ES9038Q2M is allegdly still a more "Premium" tier chip compared to the 9039Q2M offering a lower THD+N at 0,00018% vs the ..39Q2M at 0,0005 - a 10dB diffrence

 

[Aquaman]

@Aquaman
Tnx, I stand corrected. Some earlier marketing mentioned the ES9018K2M in the Ultra Amp, but the final production version was upgraded to the newer ES9039Q2M.

However, the ES9038Q2M is allegdly still a more "Premium" tier chip compared to the 9039Q2M offering a lower THD+N at 0,00018% vs the ..39Q2M at 0,0005 - a 10dB diffrence

Technically that may be true. But in practice nobody can hear that. Perhaps your dog can.

I‘m currently running my Ultra via its coax out into a Lyngdorf SDA-2400 power amp. Just for fun as it was lying around in the attic. It was designed about 10 years ago and has some old Burr Brown DAC chip that can be had for a fiver on the internet today.
TBH I cannot hear any difference to if I feed the same amp via analogue out from the Ultra with its technically superior DAC.

 

[slartibartfast]

@Aquaman
Tnx, I stand corrected. Some earlier marketing mentioned the ES9018K2M in the Ultra Amp, but the final production version was upgraded to the newer ES9039Q2M.

However, the ES9038Q2M is allegdly still a more "Premium" tier chip compared to the 9039Q2M offering a lower THD+N at 0,00018% vs the ..39Q2M at 0,0005 - a 10dB diffrence

Are you sure about that? Have you got a link?

 

[harkpabst]

@Aquaman
Tnx, I stand corrected. Some earlier marketing mentioned the ES9018K2M in the Ultra Amp, but the final production version was upgraded to the newer ES9039Q2M.

However, the ES9038Q2M is allegdly still a more "Premium" tier chip compared to the 9039Q2M offering a lower THD+N at 0,00018% vs the ..39Q2M at 0,0005 - a 10dB diffrence

Straight from the horse's mouth:

SABRE Audiophile DACs – ESS Technology, Inc.

www.esstech.com

 

[Haknuts]

@Aquaman

luckally or unfortunately, we can use AI to help us investigate this. Or so have I.

"The "Premium" vs. "Standard" statement applied to the comparison between the original WiiM Amp (aha!) which used the aging ES9018K2M, and the WiiM Ultra streamer. With the release of the Amp Ultra, the roles have actually flipped on paper, but only there (as we will see).

WiiM Amp Ultra: Uses the ESS ES9039Q2M. This is the latest generation (HyperStream IV) of the SABRE DAC series.

WiiM Ultra: Uses the ESS ES9038Q2M. This is the previous generation (HyperStream II).

Technically, the "Premium" chip is now inside the Amp Ultra. However, in the world of high-end audio, the chip generation is only half the story; the implementation (how it's built into the box) determines the final sound.

Thus, the Amp Ultra has a higher distortion figure despite a newer chip. This is because of where the measurement is taken:

For the Ultra, THD is measured at the Line Out. Since there is no power amplifier and higher amp PSU inside to create heat or electrical "smog," the DAC can hit its theoretical maximum cleanliness -116 dB/0,00015% THD. So in order to maintain this, you need an amplifier/setup that does not degrade the input.

For the Amp Ultra with its internal TPA3255 amplifier, THD is measured - at the Speaker Terminals. The -105 dB/0,0005% figure is the physical limitation of the amplifier chips and design, not the internal DAC.

All this with reservations

Sound fair?

And so, (a)I have learned something. The Amp Ultra makes the best it can out of a otherwise great DAC chip. Which leaves me with the second issue, what WiiM thinks of a future ICEedge 400A2 implementation in their amps.

Edit: @harkpabst
Thanks for the DAC datasheet. I guess they represent the potential for the raw silicone chip. The end implementation result relies - on that. Agree?

 

[slartibartfast]

@Aquaman

luckally or unfortunately, we can use AI to help us investigate this. Or so have I.

"The "Premium" vs. "Standard" statement applied to the comparison between the original WiiM Amp (aha!) which used the aging ES9018K2M, and the WiiM Ultra streamer. With the release of the Amp Ultra, the roles have actually flipped on paper, but only there (as we will see).

WiiM Amp Ultra: Uses the ESS ES9039Q2M. This is the latest generation (HyperStream IV) of the SABRE DAC series.

WiiM Ultra: Uses the ESS ES9038Q2M. This is the previous generation (HyperStream II).

Technically, the "Premium" chip is now inside the Amp Ultra. However, in the world of high-end audio, the chip generation is only half the story; the implementation (how it's built into the box) determines the final sound.

Thus, the Amp Ultra has a higher distortion figure despite a newer chip. This is because of where the measurement is taken:

For the Ultra, THD is measured at the Line Out. Since there is no power amplifier and higher amp PSU inside to create heat or electrical "smog," the DAC can hit its theoretical maximum cleanliness -116 dB/0,00015% THD. So in order to maintain this, you need an amplifier/setup that does not degrade the input.

For the Amp Ultra with its internal TPA3255 amplifier, THD is measured - at the Speaker Terminals. The -105 dB/0,0005% figure is the physical limitation of the amplifier chips and design, not the internal DAC.

All this with reservations

Sound fair?

Of course the Amp Ultra has higher distortion, it's an Amp not just a streamer

 

[Aquaman]

@Aquaman

luckally or unfortunately, we can use AI to help us investigate this. Or so have I.

"The "Premium" vs. "Standard" statement applied to the comparison between the original WiiM Amp (aha!) which used the aging ES9018K2M, and the WiiM Ultra streamer. With the release of the Amp Ultra, the roles have actually flipped on paper, but only there (as we will see).

WiiM Amp Ultra: Uses the ESS ES9039Q2M. This is the latest generation (HyperStream IV) of the SABRE DAC series.

WiiM Ultra: Uses the ESS ES9038Q2M. This is the previous generation (HyperStream II).

Technically, the "Premium" chip is now inside the Amp Ultra. However, in the world of high-end audio, the chip generation is only half the story; the implementation (how it's built into the box) determines the final sound.

Thus, the Amp Ultra has a higher distortion figure despite a newer chip. This is because of where the measurement is taken:

For the Ultra, THD is measured at the Line Out. Since there is no power amplifier and higher amp PSU inside to create heat or electrical "smog," the DAC can hit its theoretical maximum cleanliness -116 dB/0,00015% THD. So in order to maintain this, you need an amplifier/setup that does not degrade the input.

For the Amp Ultra with its internal TPA3255 amplifier, THD is measured - at the Speaker Terminals. The -105 dB/0,0005% figure is the physical limitation of the amplifier chips and design, not the internal DAC.

All this with reservations

Sound fair?

Edit: @harkpabst
Thanks for the DAC datasheet. I guess they represent the potential for the raw silicone chip. The end implementation result relies - on that. Agree?

Fair enough.
Can you hear anything down to -105db? Or even -70db?

 

[mlsstl]

@Aquaman

However, the ES9038Q2M is allegdly still a more "Premium" tier chip compared to the 9039Q2M offering a lower THD+N at 0,00018% vs the ..39Q2M at 0,0005 - a 10dB diffrence

I'm old enough to remember the tube days when anything under 1% THD was doing really good.

And those amps still have a following to this day that loves the way they sound. Don't think I'll spend any time worrying about THD under a fraction of one-thousandth of a percent.

 

[Haknuts]

Fair enough.
Can you hear anything down to -105db? Or even -70db?

Nope. I get misguided by all the youtubers who claim they can. This subjectivity is - that. Other than that, even with this modest upgrade wich I will be stuck with for another 10y, I reach for both physical and psychological confirmation

To my defence, I remember when bying that old Denon, the shop asked me if i needed (their rediculous priced) speaker cables, upon which i replied that i was planning on using some old lamp wire I had layng around, and left. Was worth the disbelief in his eyes Not true, but almost.

 

[harkpabst]

I guess they represent the potential for the raw silicone chip. The end implementation result relies - on that. Agree?

Sure.

The actual chip still defines the limit as far as DNR and SINAD goes. It's a sensible move to not only stare at the chip's datasheet, but if we are really looking at those numbers, no "better implementation" of the analogue output stage can make up for what the chip cannot deliver.

The Q2M family of ESS DACs provides strictly two channels. They also make multichannel DACs, where inputs and outputs can be connected in parallel to further reduce THD+N. One example would be the ES9038PRO. It's older than the ES9039Q2M and doesn't support all of its features, but it's a flagship 8 channel DAC, which - when used in mono mode for just one channel - can deliver a DNR of 140 dB and a THD+N of -122 dB. ESS say that this results in better "clarity and soundstage". Well, I guess they have to ...

An integrated amplifier will always have worse SINAD than than the analogue output of a digital preamplifier. That's trivial (except for AI ). ASR have crowned few power amps to supply "DAC like performance", but that's not the full truth. Those select few amp can only reach their magical THD+N values if their gain is reduced to absurdly low levels. In reality, if you combine any power amp, no matter how expensive, with e.g. a WiiM Ultra, the real world SINAD will be very close to that of the WiiM Amp Ultra.

I'm not saying that the Amp Ultra is the best amp money can buy. It's certainly not. But it's very good and it's better than the original WiiM Amp and it's no worse than the WiiM Ultra (because you cannot even compare them - except when using the digital USB output, which circumvents the DAC in each device).