My Ultra tests
- Thread starter onlyoneme
- Start date
We been in forum since its interception. I have seen things get out of hands including myself picking on some users. Onlyoneme is doing incredible work presenting us this information using his personal time. I appreciate his time doing this to all of us who cares the gold standard of measurement.
Brantome
Major Contributor
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Don’t think I don’t know and don’t appreciate that.
steadyshot
Major Contributor
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Sad to exclude someone that wants to go the extra mile .
Has everybody got banned on ASR ? I questioned the validity of listening to only one speaker to judge soundquality in a stereo system and also god banned . Onlyoneme - You do a great job , very interesting.
Looking forward to see measurements of the digital preamp including digital volume regulation at -20 dB compared to pro+, the use of the fixed SRC at 192 kHz, and the PEQ functions sinad through spdif.
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(
ps the sinad at 1k is of little interest, it is the sinad/frequency and vs level....scan which possibly has one...except that it does not allow "easy number"... (we sent a mirror of tens of millions of dollars in space with this kind of approach...despite the flaws... ;-)
)
people numbers easy to understand...even if clearly...a little stupid...
even a simple sequence of 3 piano chords with the pedal pressed has a frequency complexity unrelated to an AP32... and just has a max level... not vs level etc etc hihi
;-)
)
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I have to verify it, I missed that one of my devices got the beta FW which is supposed to fix it.
This is not the case here, it's all about measurements. I just stand on the position that measurements are often overhyped and calling a device "transparent" because of few measurement results is a huge oversimplification.
there are two main subjects...
this is the vast use of study reference in the general population (especially since for example, hearing acuity is known to be linked to language for example...),
and the use of approaches via measurements, which are in fact a thousand miles from the complexity of the subject observed...
there is nothing shocking, but there is nothing scientific about pretending not to constantly conceive the limits of these ultra-simplifying approaches,... see demagogic ;-)
sufficiency makes you stupid ;-)
we arrive at the famous “asr” coginitive bias..hihi
cognitive biases exist...but they can also seem to make one sufficiency and stupid...
The questioning seemed to me one of the things always essential in "science" ...
;-)
sorry for my english
;-)
Do you really think you "hear" the piano like a professional pianist, or the violin by a violinist started at 5 years old? perceive smells like “noses” among perfumers? etc
;-)
end for me
this is the vast use of study reference in the general population (especially since for example, hearing acuity is known to be linked to language for example...),
and the use of approaches via measurements, which are in fact a thousand miles from the complexity of the subject observed...
there is nothing shocking, but there is nothing scientific about pretending not to constantly conceive the limits of these ultra-simplifying approaches,... see demagogic ;-)
sufficiency makes you stupid ;-)
we arrive at the famous “asr” coginitive bias..hihi
cognitive biases exist...but they can also seem to make one sufficiency and stupid...
The questioning seemed to me one of the things always essential in "science" ...
;-)
sorry for my english
;-)
Do you really think you "hear" the piano like a professional pianist, or the violin by a violinist started at 5 years old? perceive smells like “noses” among perfumers? etc
;-)
end for me
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return to the measures of onlyoneme.... who for a long time have provided sacred services... to all... and wiim
;-)
(we must not forget that first of all the essential of these approaches, and of the machines, of simplifying measurements was... the diagnosis, the adjustment, the maintenance, the quality control.... not the """"transparency"""" .....what ultimately does for wiim onlyoneme ;-)
)
;-)
(we must not forget that first of all the essential of these approaches, and of the machines, of simplifying measurements was... the diagnosis, the adjustment, the maintenance, the quality control.... not the """"transparency"""" .....what ultimately does for wiim onlyoneme ;-)
)
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Steve Woodhouse
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Okay, showing that we can disagree politely.
The term ‘transparent’ in this context means that measurements show that any difference between the original signal and the output from the product do not differ enough to be audible to humans, based on what is known about human hearing, based on controlled tests, and proven (within the limits of scientific testing) to be the case. No more and no less.
If someone disagrees, they’re more than entitled to. But I would always ask that their claims are supported by the same standards of evidence.
I don’t feel that’s a particularly argumentative point. It’s a position most of us would adhere to for most of our lives, whether it’s taking medicine or climbing on a plane.
Best wishes, and my best intentions to everyone.
steadyshot
Major Contributor
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You need to specify the exact thresholds for every conceivable measurement , the exact conditions , the rest of equipment characteristics and how they interact with the equipment in test . What is a transparent system - do not look equipment in isolation. Eg what is the final snr of a system at what spl level ? What is the thd +n of a system including speakers at all frequencies at all levels . How about transient speed ? How about intermodulation distortion of a system as a whole . What are the exact thresholds? Who tested them properly to find out that there is no discernible audible difference at any condition . We want exact numbers and tests in acoustically treated rooms that space cannot distort heavily the output of systems in comparison.
In the end we all want equipment as technically superior as possible in every field. The goal is to have full frequency response, with very low distortion and noise at any volume level, with any imaginable characteristic that can possibly affect sound output to be SOTA. Therefore when you have measurements for everything you have to take them all to consideration, because the better they are the higher the chance you will achieve this result. Don't mess audibility with measurements because then your are the subjective one. Stay with what you know for certain.
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So that's the point which I disagree. While it might be correct to use a "transparent" term for the conditions where the test was made and when the results suggest that any distortions are below the audibility level, using the same term for the device itself is not justified when just few measurements were made, usually FFT based. They do not prove that the device will act "transparent" under conditions different than the test conditions of the performed measurements.
Shortly speaking, a great Sinad result might let call the device "transparent", but only when a single sine signal of the constant amplitude is played. It can be also used as a predicate that such good results might be get for other signals, but it isn't a proof. In fact the device behavior under conditions different that the test ones remain unknown.
For me, personally, a claim that device is "transparent", when it's based on the very limited number of tests which do not cover the device behavior properly, is not a stronger evidence than the claim that someone can hear differences between two devices even if called as "transparent".
Another thing - is the power supply free from leaking HF from the smps back to the grid, that possibly can affect amplifiers and such ?
WiiM products sells by real retailers in Europe and products on that market needs to meet HF radiation standards . So the WiiM pro with stock powersupply is apparently good enough on this part. This is maybe not an issue at all with the Ultra ?
Steve Woodhouse
Major Contributor
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- Aug 11, 2023
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The limits of human hearing are well documented (if you don’t know what they are, I’m not doing the legwork for you).
If you believe that perhaps they will differ in certain circumstances, the onus is on you to provide evidence.
I am more than happy to accept that the science is wrong, or flawed, or incomplete, but the starting point would have to be properly controlled testing.
Put another way, the scientists have provided evidence about what can and can’t be heard. If you believe otherwise, the least you can do is point to an independent test showing that a statistically significant number of people can hear the difference, even if you can’t explain what it is or how it works.
As I’ve said, this is the same scientific method used to test your medicines and aircraft.
If you believe that perhaps they will differ in certain circumstances, the onus is on you to provide evidence.
I am more than happy to accept that the science is wrong, or flawed, or incomplete, but the starting point would have to be properly controlled testing.
Put another way, the scientists have provided evidence about what can and can’t be heard. If you believe otherwise, the least you can do is point to an independent test showing that a statistically significant number of people can hear the difference, even if you can’t explain what it is or how it works.
As I’ve said, this is the same scientific method used to test your medicines and aircraft.
