What external DAC to improve the Ultra?

[timfrommass]

Not really.

When it sounds perfect then you know how it’ll sound. If it measures poorly then feel free to listen and see if you like that particular flavor of distortion. But if it measures well it’ll sound the same as the rest of the perfect sounding dacs

 

[Smartplug]

I heard many kind of devices including tube, r2r and delta sigma. I admit those tube can really sound really good despite their high distortion. Maybe those harmonic distortion can be soothing to some user but of course that won’t passed on asr. R2r can also sound fine if you’re looking thick meat on the bone sound. Both tube and r2r can produce more depth and convincing sound. Delta sigma are very transparent and polite sound. Ultra is connected on audio switcher so I can choose akm, ess and multibit.

 

[amix]

I'm old enough to remember 1982 "perfect sound, forever". Everyone got on board & vinyl was dead. But it wasn't perfect, was it? 40 years of improvements followed--even tho the "experts" said it was impossible.

Haha, I also remember those days! It took them until late 90's, that they understood digital good enough, to compete with a good analogue system. Not saying, there weren't good CD players before that, but they were rare and expensive.

 

[amix]

Not my point... I'm sure much progress has been made over the past 40 years - hopefully.

I just don't see why people are buying the Ultra - with an excellent built-in DAC, only to add their own. Because the main extra cost factor compared to the Mini or the Pro are the upgraded DAC and accompanying built-in power supply, not the tiny touch screen or the volume knob

Maybe they buy it for the form factor, screen, etc?!

 

[Smartplug]

Haha, I also remember those days! It took them until late 90's, that they understood digital good enough, to compete with a good analogue system. Not saying, there weren't good CD players before that, but they were rare and expensive.

All the streaming services that offer 24/96 or 24/192 doesn’t impress me because their just upsampling from cd. If they were native 24/96 I would probably get a goosebumps but I have yet to hear such native resolution.

 

[Aquarius]

When it sounds perfect then you know how it’ll sound. If it measures poorly then feel free to listen and see if you like that particular flavor of distortion. But if it measures well it’ll sound the same as the rest of the perfect sounding dacs

Ok, so you think that level of distortion/jitter is the only things that differentiates the sound of two DACs?

 

[onlyoneme]

But if it measures well it’ll sound the same as the rest of the perfect sounding dacs

Not really.

What is really granted is that if it measures really really bad it will also sound poor for anyone who expects a clean reproduction free of distortions. And that's all.

 

[Kiddwad57]

Archimago’s Musings has an article dated May 25, 2024 summarizing the results of an online blind test amongst reader's that compares three DACs.

 

[Kiddwad57]

Haha, I also remember those days! It took them until late 90's, that they understood digital good enough, to compete with a good analogue system. Not saying, there weren't good CD players before that, but they were rare and expensive.

My first CD player was a late ‘80s (?) Philips CD50. It sounded very, very good through tubes. My main impression upon hearing CDs was that I could finally hear the music without having to listen through the surface noise and rumble that always plagued my vinyl experiences.

 

[timfrommass]

Not really.

What is really granted is that if it measures really really bad it will also sound poor for anyone who expects a clean reproduction free of distortions. And that's all.

You could never tell the difference in a blind test between two well designed dacs or amplifiers. This kind of thing has been proven and is academic at this point to anyone who chooses to accept science

 

[timfrommass]

Ok, so you think that level of distortion/jitter is the only things that differentiates the sound of two DACs?

What do you think makes them sound different?

 

[sleepysurf]

There can clearly be a difference in fidelity among different DAC's (even after volume matching). However, the chip/conversion architecture is only one component. The analog output stage is probably even more important. Slight differences in SINAD and other measurements are likely irrelevant. In my case, although the Wiim Ultra's analog output sounds quite good, I'm feeding the digital coax to a Topping E70 Velvet DAC, which sounds even better to my ears with very resolving Martin Logan electrostatic speakers (Expression 13A's).

 

[timfrommass]

There can clearly be a difference in fidelity among different DAC's (even after volume matching). However, the chip/conversion architecture is only one component. The analog output stage is probably even more important. Slight differences in SINAD and other measurements are likely irrelevant. In my case, although the Wiim Ultra's analog output sounds quite good, I'm feeding the digital coax to a Topping E70 Velvet DAC, which sounds even better to my ears with very resolving Martin Logan electrostatic speakers (Expression 13A's).

So you’ve participated in a double blind level matched listening test and were able to (or observed people) reliably able to hear “clear differences in fidelity” and identify which dac was playing?

 

[Smartplug]

So you’ve participated in a double blind level matched listening test and were able to (or observed people) reliably able to hear “clear differences in fidelity” and identify which dac was playing?

Instead of fidelity that listener described, it’s more sound different than anything. Even if you look at entry level dac their sinad is already outstanding and going higher price gets you few more db. Every brand manufacturer has their device tuned in on how it should sound such as strong bass and mid and smooth high or the opposite.

 

[Smartplug]

There can clearly be a difference in fidelity among different DAC's (even after volume matching). However, the chip/conversion architecture is only one component. The analog output stage is probably even more important. Slight differences in SINAD and other measurements are likely irrelevant. In my case, although the Wiim Ultra's analog output sounds quite good, I'm feeding the digital coax to a Topping E70 Velvet DAC, which sounds even better to my ears with very resolving Martin Logan electrostatic speakers (Expression 13A's).

Take a look at brand denon and Yamaha despite their great measurements they don’t sound the same. I owned both brand before their sound signature is different from one another.

 

[sleepysurf]

So you’ve participated in a double blind level matched listening test and were able to (or observed people) reliably able to hear “clear differences in fidelity” and identify which dac was playing?

Actually, I conducted my own "single blinded" and "level matched" test between my 12 y/o $7000 Bel Canto DAC 3.5VB and the $349 Topping E70 Velvet (using simultaneous digital outputs from a Squeezebox Touch as source) and having my wife switch between the two. The Topping DAC was clearly better, and I could identify it 100% of the time. Due to the lack of simultaneous outputs, I couldn't conduct the same test with the Wiim Ultra. However, with (volume matched) sequential listening of the same "excerpts" playlist (see below), I still preferred the Topping over the Wiim. I had a hard time hearing differences between the Wiim Ultra and Bel Canto.

Here's a screenshot of my track "excerpts" playlist, including Pink Noise for volume matching (using the AudioTool app on my android phone).

 

[timfrommass]

Actually, I conducted my own "single blinded" and "level matched" test between my 12 y/o $7000 Bel Canto DAC 3.5VB and the $349 Topping E70 Velvet (using simultaneous digital outputs from a Squeezebox Touch as source) and having my wife switch between the two. The Topping DAC was clearly better, and I could identify it 100% of the time. Due to the lack of simultaneous outputs, I couldn't conduct the same test with the Wiim Ultra. However, with (volume matched) sequential listening of the same "excerpts" playlist (see below), I still preferred the Topping over the Wiim. I had a hard time hearing differences between the Wiim Ultra and Bel Canto.

Here's a screenshot of my track "excerpts" playlist, including Pink Noise for volume matching (using the AudioTool app on my android phone).

View attachment 12638

The bel canto being 12 years old and even at that time Stereophile noticing some oddities in the measurements, I’m not sure it fits the category of dac I’m talking about. Preferring the topping to the wiim is irrelevant as it wasn’t a blind test

 

[timfrommass]

Instead of fidelity that listener described, it’s more sound different than anything. Even if you look at entry level dac their sinad is already outstanding and going higher price gets you few more db. Every brand manufacturer has their device tuned in on how it should sound such as strong bass and mid and smooth high or the opposite.

This is simply not true. If the goals is neutrality then that is easily handled in a dac these days. A manufacturer may chose to color the sound, but if both measure above certain thresholds you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference without knowing which was played or one playing at a different volume than the other. If the distortion is low and the measured output frequency response is flat, how would you suggest that they “tuned” more bass?

 

[Smartplug]

This is simply not true. If the goals is neutrality then that is easily handled in a dac these days. A manufacturer may chose to color the sound, but if both measure above certain thresholds you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference without knowing which was played or one playing at a different volume than the other. If the distortion is low and the measured output frequency response is flat, how would you suggest that they “tuned” more bass?

Have you owned both denon and Yamaha? They don’t sound same despite their great measurements. You don’t have to have a golden ear to hear difference. Neutral is what the aim but many factor can play such as your age hearing treble is hard so therefore you boost the treble.

 

[timfrommass]

Have you owned both denon and Yamaha? They don’t sound same despite their great measurements. You don’t have to have a golden ear to hear difference. Neutral is what the aim but many factor can play such as your age hearing treble is hard so therefore you boost the treble.

I’ve owned many denon and Yamaha products. Which particular to which particular models are you referring?