Which amp to match the Ultra?

[harkpabst]

I somehow doubt that the term "match" has been used that literally.

There are many ways a pre-amp might match or not match a power-amp: Simply visually (if just for similar size), regarding the input and output connectors (for not needing adapters or custom cables), output level and amplifier gain (no fixed standards there), output and input impedance (usually not much of an issue nowadays, but as we have seen people will use older equipment) and finally, yes, "sound signature".

It's also fair to just ask others what their plans are for no special reason. Since most everything about the Ultra is still speculation or preliminary information nobody should expect any "right" or "wrong" answer.

 

[Achim1811]

As I gave my opinion (most likely too often ) that DACs are overrated for me the same is valid with amps. Important yes, but not the gamechangers. You have bought your recent amp for your likes and for sure with some research, otherwise you are not a typical forum member. So if you want to move some setscrews take care on source, speakers and room (the order may be debatable). There is for sure always space for improvement or adjustment. From a long experience I do not see any issue why my amp not "matches" the coming Ultra (or any other streamer) once it is available.
Questions of size, optic and so on were mentioned by @harkpabst already. If the "match" would mean the sonic side my opinion is: Buy whatever you like, can afford and what steps over the WAF obstacle. And may be the best idea, try first what you have already. But I know best that the love for something new is always imminent.

 

[Achim1811]

By the way, early appearance on my favorite dealer's website. End of July scheduled.

 

[VladaJ]

Yeah i'm set to try it out. Maybe i will be pleasantly surprised (i hope). Concerning a (good) pre amp/streamer with HDMI (e)Arc and nice display i can't find alternative (and affordable) options for the upcoming Wiim Ultra.

If you didn't like the sound of WiiM Amp, I don't think you will be satisfied with the sound of the WiiM Mini/Fosi combination either.
DAC in the WiiM Mini is the bottleneck in any such combination. I added an SMSL SU-1 dac to my Mini and it changed the sound completely.

 

[Mr Ee]

By the way, early appearance on my favorite dealer's website. End of July scheduled.

View attachment 7439

I'll believe it when I see it...

 

[Achim1811]

Y

I'll believe it when I see it...

You have to look at the time lag
Much more important is the performance. July or December...does it really matter?

 

[harkpabst]

Much more important is the performance. July or December...does it really matter?

The answer might depend on individual age.

By the way, early appearance on my favorite dealer's website. End of July scheduled.

View attachment 7439

Can be ordered in either black or black. Like Ford Model T.

"Available from the end of July" means first and foremost: guaranteed not earlier.

 

[Achim1811]

The answer might depend on individual age.


Can be ordered in either black or black. Like Ford Model T.

"Available from the end of July" means first and foremost: guaranteed not earlier.

Correct in all points!

 

[MaRsS72]

If you didn't like the sound of WiiM Amp, I don't think you will be satisfied with the sound of the WiiM Mini/Fosi combination either.
DAC in the WiiM Mini is the bottleneck in any such combination. I added an SMSL SU-1 dac to my Mini and it changed the sound completely.

Interesting. In what way did the SMSL SU-1 dac changed the sound? Does it make the sound more smooth, refined, more 3d and soundstage wider?

 

[VladaJ]

Interesting. In what way did the SMSL SU-1 dac changed the sound? Does it make the sound more smooth, refined, more 3d and soundstage wider?

For me, it did.
Without an external dac, my Mini sounded muffled to me, with weak details and punch in the bass region, not a very good stereo image and treble was neither extended nor detailed.
The SU-1 corrected all of that. Of course, you can't expect Hi-End sound out of that combination, but I liked what I heard, it was smooth, extended and detailed enough for everyday enjoyment.
But, I must also say that for me, the WiiM Amp I am using now is good enough. I can't discern any serious flaws. I would say not as detailed as the Mini/SU-1 combination, but not too far either.

 

[MaRsS72]

For me, it did.
Without an external dac, my Mini sounded muffled to me, with weak details and punch in the bass region, not a very good stereo image and treble was neither extended nor detailed.
The SU-1 corrected all of that. Of course, you can't expect Hi-End sound out of that combination, but I liked what I heard, it was smooth, extended and detailed enough for everyday enjoyment.
But, I must also say that for me, the WiiM Amp I am using now is good enough. I can't discern any serious flaws. I would say not as detailed as the Mini/SU-1 combination, but not too far either.

Good to hear that. I had the Wiim Amp a few days ago (just because i was curious and wanted to test it) and on itself in my setup it was dissapointing for me (soundquality wise). I only did a amp swap (NAD C700 for the Wiim Amp). It was nowhere near the SQ of the NAD C700 so that didn't work out for me.

At this moment i am testing a Fosi Audio ZA3 in combination with a Wiim Mini in my setup (removed the NAD C700) and i like that much better then the Wiim Amp swap. It's still not on par with my NAD C700 but the punch/power is there and the SQ is not that bad but it still lacks smoothness, definition etc. compared to the NAD C700.

The sound quality when streaming music varies, some songs sound okay/good (but could be better), while others sound worse than what I'm used to for example, with the song "You should probably leave" by Chris Stapleton (which I know well), the vocals sounded muffled (and pushed to the background) and not as clear/defined/smooth. The overall stereo image wasn't great either. Normally, his voice stands out and is super clear and detailed.

Unfortunately, there is no HDMI Arc on the amplifier and/or Wiim Mini, so for the sound of the TV i had to connect the Wiim Mini to my tv via Bluetooth. Certainly not ideal, but then I can get an idea of what it sounds like with TV sound, movies, etc. Although it is not at the level of the NAD C700 here either, it sounds quite ok (but of course it could be better). The vocals don't sound muffled and fairly crisp but I miss a bit of body and it seems that the emphasis is more on the vocals and the rest is pushed to the background. The soundstage is also not very large and wide (compared to the NAD C700).

Maybe an external DAC like the SMSL SU-1 could indeed bring a significant improvement here. I'm thinking of ordering one to test it out, and maybe also a Bluesound Node (which I would connect to the ZA3). Testing a Bluesound Node might help me determine if it's the amplifier and internal DAC implementation of the NAD/Bluesound group that I like, or perhaps adding just an SMSL SU-1 DAC is enough to achieve the same or better sound quality.

 

[VladaJ]

Good to hear that. I had the Wiim Amp a few days ago (just because i was curious and wanted to test it) and on itself in my setup it was dissapointing for me (soundquality wise). I only did a amp swap (NAD C700 for the Wiim Amp). It was nowhere near the SQ of the NAD C700 so that didn't work out for me.

At this moment i am testing a Fosi Audio ZA3 in combination with a Wiim Mini in my setup (removed the NAD C700) and i like that much better then the Wiim Amp swap. It's still not on par with my NAD C700 but the punch/power is there and the SQ is not that bad but it still lacks smoothness, definition etc. compared to the NAD C700.

The sound quality when streaming music varies, some songs sound okay/good (but could be better), while others sound worse than what I'm used to for example, with the song "You should probably leave" by Chris Stapleton (which I know well), the vocals sounded muffled (and pushed to the background) and not as clear/defined/smooth. The overall stereo image wasn't great either. Normally, his voice stands out and is super clear and detailed.

Unfortunately, there is no HDMI Arc on the amplifier and/or Wiim Mini, so for the sound of the TV i had to connect the Wiim Mini to my tv via Bluetooth. Certainly not ideal, but then I can get an idea of what it sounds like with TV sound, movies, etc. Although it is not at the level of the NAD C700 here either, it sounds quite ok (but of course it could be better). The vocals don't sound muffled and fairly crisp but I miss a bit of body and it seems that the emphasis is more on the vocals and the rest is pushed to the background. The soundstage is also not very large and wide (compared to the NAD C700).

Maybe an external DAC like the SMSL SU-1 could indeed bring a significant improvement here. I'm thinking of ordering one to test it out, and maybe also a Bluesound Node (which I would connect to the ZA3). Testing a Bluesound Node might help me determine if it's the amplifier and internal DAC implementation of the NAD/Bluesound group that I like, or perhaps adding just an SMSL SU-1 DAC is enough to achieve the same or better sound quality.

It seams that you have a sound type you are used to (NAD) and that the WiiM(s) are not giving you that in any combination.
An external dac with the Mini will probably make things better and more to your liking. It will certainly change the sound, no doubt about that.

On the other hand, maybe your intention to try out the NODE would be a solution for you, since they're coming from the same stable as NAD.
I've used the NODE briefly and didn't really like the sound. Like one of my friends said: "it sounds as though it doesn't want to offend anyone"... nothing lacking, but nothing shinning either. Somehow flat I would say. That's why I moved on from it, even though the BlueOS app is the best I've seen to date (which, to me, is equally important as the SQ for a streamer).

 

[MaRsS72]

It seams that you have a sound type you are used to (NAD) and that the WiiM(s) are not giving you that in any combination.
An external dac with the Mini will probably make things better and more to your liking. It will certainly change the sound, no doubt about that.

On the other hand, maybe your intention to try out the NODE would be a solution for you, since they're coming from the same stable as NAD.
I've used the NODE briefly and didn't really like the sound. Like one of my friends said: "it sounds as though it doesn't want to offend anyone"... nothing lacking, but nothing shinning either. Somehow flat I would say. That's why I moved on from it, even though the BlueOS app is the best I've seen to date (which, to me, is equally important as the SQ for a streamer).

It may be that I have indeed become accustomed to the sound of NAD family audio products. This is because I have had several amplifiers/products from other brands in my setup that I did not like as much as (for example) a Bluesound Powernode/NAD C700.

I like a bit of warmth/smoothness in the sound without losing clarity/details. Maybe that's why the sound of Arcam and to a lesser extent Marantz also appeals to me, but with those brands, you have to be (extra) careful with speaker choice so it doesn't sound too muffled (from my own experience). I think NAD is the golden middle ground for me so far although I'm open to being surprised by adding an (affordable) external DAC like the SMSL SU-1.

I will try/test at least 3 things:
1. Adding SMSL SU-1 DAC to the Fosi Audio ZA3 and Wiim Mini.
2. Replacing Wiim Mini with Bluesound Node (which also gives me HDMI Arc for testing that sound as well), so it would be: Fosi Audio ZA3 + Bluesound Node.
3. Fosi Audio ZA3 + Bluesound Node + SMSL SU-1 DAC.

Then I'll see which option I prefer. Maybe option 1 will be sufficient for me, and I'll know that I can switch to a Wiim Ultra + Fosi Audio ZA3 or 2x Fosi Audio V3 Mono + SMSL SU-1 DAC later with peace of mind. If option 1 still doesn't yield the desired result and options 2 and 3 appeal to me even more, and even surpass the sound quality of my NAD C700 (to my ears), then I'll have to let go of the idea of pairing the upcoming Wiim Ultra with Fosi Audio amplifiers. It's a matter of weighing the options. It's then the choice whether to keep the NAD C700 or go for the Fosi Audio ZA3/V3 Mono + Bluesound Node + possibly an SMSL SU-1 but then I won't have a display to see at least the volume level (which is kind of important to me/my girlfriend). We'll see, i've already ordered the SMSL SU-1 and Bluesound Node, so let's first see how the three options I mentioned earlier will work out for me.

 

[VladaJ]

It may be that I have indeed become accustomed to the sound of NAD family audio products. This is because I have had several amplifiers/products from other brands in my setup that I did not like as much as (for example) a Bluesound Powernode/NAD C700.

I like a bit of warmth/smoothness in the sound without losing clarity/details. Maybe that's why the sound of Arcam and to a lesser extent Marantz also appeals to me, but with those brands, you have to be (extra) careful with speaker choice so it doesn't sound too muffled (from my own experience). I think NAD is the golden middle ground for me so far although I'm open to being surprised by adding an (affordable) external DAC like the SMSL SU-1.

I will try/test at least 3 things:
1. Adding SMSL SU-1 DAC to the Fosi Audio ZA3 and Wiim Mini.
2. Replacing Wiim Mini with Bluesound Node (which also gives me HDMI Arc for testing that sound as well), so it would be: Fosi Audio ZA3 + Bluesound Node.
3. Fosi Audio ZA3 + Bluesound Node + SMSL SU-1 DAC.

Then I'll see which option I prefer. Maybe option 1 will be sufficient for me, and I'll know that I can switch to a Wiim Ultra + Fosi Audio ZA3 or 2x Fosi Audio V3 Mono + SMSL SU-1 DAC later with peace of mind. If option 1 still doesn't yield the desired result and options 2 and 3 appeal to me even more, and even surpass the sound quality of my NAD C700 (to my ears), then I'll have to let go of the idea of pairing the upcoming Wiim Ultra with Fosi Audio amplifiers. It's a matter of weighing the options. It's then the choice whether to keep the NAD C700 or go for the Fosi Audio ZA3/V3 Mono + Bluesound Node + possibly an SMSL SU-1 but then I won't have a display to see at least the volume level (which is kind of important to me/my girlfriend). We'll see, i've already ordered the SMSL SU-1 and Bluesound Node, so let's first see how the three options I mentioned earlier will work out for me.

Well, that sounds like a plan
If it's no bother, please post your thoughts after you've evaluated everything you've planned
Cheers!

 

[MaRsS72]

Well, that sounds like a plan
If it's no bother, please post your thoughts after you've evaluated everything you've planned
Cheers!

I will

 

[Burgo]

I'm looking to give it go into a pair of Quad IIs, thence Tannoy Berkeleys.

 

[D1N0]

Audiophonics has listed it: https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/streamers/wiim-ultra-p-19305.html

 

[dangermouse]

Audiophonics has listed it: https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/streamers/wiim-ultra-p-19305.html

For pre-order. Make of that what you will.

 

[MaRsS72]

Well, that sounds like a plan
If it's no bother, please post your thoughts after you've evaluated everything you've planned
Cheers!

Well i have added the SMSL SU-1 dac to the Wiim Mini and Fosi Audio ZA3 and wow! what a difference it made for me. Now it finally sounds more to my liking. To my idea the soundquality now comes close to my NAD C700. Maybe the NAD C700 stills sounds a tiny bit smoother/warmer but it sounds hi-end enough. Guess the external dac was the missing link for me. I think the Bluesound Node will arrive coming tuesday/wednesday but now i am not really that curious anymore to try it out because i am already satisfied with the result of the combination i have now.

Plan is to keep the SMSL SU-1 and to return the Wiim Mini and Fosi Audio. Then getting 2 Fosi Audio V3 mono amps and a Wiim Ultra as soon as it comes out in The Netherlands.

What amplifier did you use with the Wiim and SMSL SU-1?

 

[d6jg]

If I eventually buy an Ultra I’m going to use it with my newly acquired Mission 778x but whether I use the Ultra’s internal DAC is up for debate.

At present I have a Raspberry Pi (in a nice black aluminium case) attached to the Mission’s USB-B port so acting purely as a streamer and using the amp’s inbuilt DAC. It sounds absolutely awesome in combination with also newly acquired Kef Q550s.

If I get an Ultra it will go head to head with the Pi which frankly is going to be difficult to better.

The other persuading factor will be how the Ultra’s display works when using the onboard Squeezelite.