Wiim Ultra with SVS Micro 3000

[slartibartfast]

The Ultra as I've previously mentioned was moved to my listening position to measure the delay. I really don't want to get into external mics and REW ... for me that's a step too far but thanks for your suggestions.

Oh yes I forgot it was you who moved the Ultra . Nobody is worried about the 40Hz hump as that is exactly what RoomFit is designed to remove and everyone has a similar hump. Some even like the sound of it without correction .

 

[Goodnews]

If you change the position, the cancellations shift.
One option is to move 50-70 cm to the left or right, starting from the middle of the stereo width = LS.
For 2 woofers, use the corner position for each.

At the listening position, the value should be around 80dB, measured with an old-school sound pressure meter and set to C & slow.
Then repeat the process with the main speakers. Then the game begins with the level adjustment + or - from the 0 dB position.

What also helps, in my opinion, is to place the main LS on the diagonal room plane = woofer corner, then on the respective diagonal plane, just a little further into the room.

And finally, apply RoomFit.




OR


A DBA that places the woofers diametrically, meaning the rear wall of the LS or the rear wall of the listening position, and don't forget RT60 ~ 4 ms.

 

[dominikz]

Your option 2 ... I do believe I tried this but couldn't hear any difference (maybe my hearing). It might have measured differently but I can remember
All attempts since have always been with the SVS and ultra set at 0 phase.
Just to be sure when I get a chance I will rerun option 2, collect screenshots and post here

That's great - this test will show if you have a partial cancellation around the crossover or not, and consequently if subwoofer level can be reduced (or not).

That hump at 40Hz is bothering me but seemingly not anyone else? I believe it's a room and sub positioning issue and that maybe a second sub placed mid room would smooth out the room effects.

We'll first thing is to determine if the phase/delay matching of the sub and speakers around the crossover is optimal or not (this is what the two tests are for). After we're sure about that, we'll see if there's a need to further optimize placement.

As mentioned before, your response after RoomFit is already pretty good, all this now is just experimentation to see if the raw response before RoomFit can be improved (so that RoomFit has less work to do ).

As @harkpabst said, you can see that RoomFit takes care of the 40Hz resonance nicely - this is exactly the kind of thing it was designed to do.

 

[Lagavulin]

So I'm into experimental mode now before I have to take a break.
I ran @dominikz option 2 with the SVS set to -20dB and 0 phase and the Ulta at 180 phase. Couldn't be arsed to move the Ultra to my actual listening position, to run the sub sync function, as it's not far off anyway. I ran the sub sync function first again at 0 phase on the Ultra. The result was pretty much the same as before at 9ms. I then ran the sub sync function at 180 phase and this time the delay was greater at 13ms ... not sure why this should be?
Anyhow I proceeded to run RoomFit at this setting and at -12/+12 gain.
Here's the results:

Forgot to take screenshots of the actual PEQ bands sadly.
Profile saved and now listening to the Ultra which honestly sounds good to these old ears

 

[Goodnews]

An example of the necessary preparatory work

Room 5 m x 3.4 width x 250 height = 42.5 m³

However, clipping is only lifted to the extent that the playback chain provides the corresponding levels.

My2 Cent A DBA is best

 

[Lagavulin]

Actually these are the Ultra's PEQ values at 180 Phase:

 

[Lagavulin]

An example of the necessary preparatory work

Room 5 m x 3.4 width x 250 height = 42.5 m³

However, clipping is only lifted to the extent that the playback chain provides the corresponding levels.

My2 Cent A DBA is best

Thanks for these suggestions however I'm really fixed with my current positions as they are in a bedroom ... not ideal but it is what it is and I have to work with what I've got unfortunately.

 

[harkpabst]

My point is that you can manually change the latency between the main speakers and the subwoofer without physically relocating any of them and without having to carry the WiiM Ultra around.

The reasoning is that the automatic sync might still not give the perfect result, even if you place the Ultra in your MLP.

There's no guarantee, it's just an additional degree of freedom you can make use of. Running the RoomFit procedure and/or evaluating a RoomFit profile (the latter is restricted to stereo mode results) might be a bit cumbersome, but it's not half as tedious as moving speakers, subs or the WiiM Ultra around.

Again, it could be that there is not much to gain (I didn't try to analyse your latest results yet) but changing the latency in 1 ms or 2 ms steps is free and easy.

 

[Lagavulin]

My point is that you can manually change the latency between the main speakers and the subwoofer without physically relocating any of them and without having to carry the WiiM Ultra around.

The reasoning is that the automatic sync might still not give the perfect result, even if you place the Ultra in your MLP.

There's no guarantee, it's just an additional degree of freedom you can make use of. Running the RoomFit procedure and/or evaluating a RoomFit profile (the latter is restricted to stereo mode results) might be a bit cumbersome, but it's not half as tedious as moving speakers, subs or the WiiM Ultra around.

Again, it could be that there is not much to gain (I didn't btry to analyse your latest results yet) but changing the latency in 1 ms or 2 ms steps is free and easy.

Ok I get that I think
So if the Ultra's measured the latency as 13ms then I manually adjust it down to 11ms with the current configuration, then maybe 9ms, 8ms, 7ms and so on running RoomFit again after each and observe the results.
I'm going to have to be in a good mood to spend the time doing it
To be honest the sound is pretty good right now ... the sub seems to be pretty dialed in, as most of the time I'm not noticing it, until a tracks bass line starts kicking in with aplomb

 

[Lagavulin]

Come on guy's ... where's the two subs are better than one for music reproduction support?
I mean I have a plinth ready and waiting

 

[harkpabst]

Ok, here we go: Two subs are better than one for music reproduction. And four subs are better than two.

 

[Lagavulin]

Ok, here we go: Two subs are better than one for music reproduction. And four subs are better than two.

Told you so .... Knew there would be like minded people on here
Anyhow ... any opinions on the change to 180 phase results? Certainly the PEQ bands are reaching beyond 100Hz now ... not so many needed to smooth out results below 100Hz.

 

[slartibartfast]

Told you so .... Knew there would be like minded people on here
Anyhow ... any opinions on the change to 180 phase results? Certainly the PEQ bands are reaching beyond 100Hz now ... not so many needed to smooth out results below 100Hz.

The latest results show the response below 50Hz is up to 5dB above the target curve. Why would that be?

 

[Lagavulin]

The latest results show the response below 50Hz is up to 5dB above the target curve. Why would that be?

I hope you're not asking me
@harkpabst and @dominikz over to you
It certainly sounds good to my ears ...

 

[Goodnews]

From a psychoacoustic perspective, there are two resonance issues: exaggerations and cancellations.

Cancellations become audible and noticeable when the exaggerations are located immediately before or after them and are regulated too strongly by the program. Basically, and to put it bluntly, reductions are exaggerations elsewhere.

The more woofers, the more uniform the excitation.
In a typical setup, one woofer is installed and many are happy.

Anything I influence in terms of room acoustics, I then have to correct using software.

In terms of frequency, the woofers are used for < 80 Hz. A 10 dB boost is still okay, but a 10 dB cancellation... poor amp, if it has no headroom left.

 

[Goodnews]

Thanks for these suggestions however I'm really fixed with my current positions as they are in a bedroom ... not ideal but it is what it is and I have to work with what I've got unfortunately.
View attachment 29695

Okay

 

[dominikz]

So I'm into experimental mode now before I have to take a break.
I ran @dominikz option 2 with the SVS set to -20dB and 0 phase and the Ulta at 180 phase. Couldn't be arsed to move the Ultra to my actual listening position, to run the sub sync function, as it's not far off anyway. I ran the sub sync function first again at 0 phase on the Ultra. The result was pretty much the same as before at 9ms. I then ran the sub sync function at 180 phase and this time the delay was greater at 13ms ... not sure why this should be?
Anyhow I proceeded to run RoomFit at this setting and at -12/+12 gain.
Here's the results:
View attachment 29683View attachment 29684View attachment 29685View attachment 29686View attachment 29687
Forgot to take screenshots of the actual PEQ bands sadly.
Profile saved and now listening to the Ultra which honestly sounds good to these old ears

Great work!

I'd say this new attempt shows that your original calibration with subwoofer level at -10dB, phase at 0°, and 9ms delay for the speakers is the way to go.
The delay value of 9ms is IMHO more reasonable than 13ms. You get a higher delay value with phase set to 180° because the system is trying to compensate for the phase mismatch between the speakers and the sub at the crossover.
Note that SVS sub DSP adds about 6ms and the difference in speaker/sub distance should add 2-3ms more which comes around 8-9ms total - which is just what you get with phase set to 0°.

So this is the setup and calibration I believe you should return to:

These are the results when the Tannoys were synced at -10dB on the SVS Micro 3000:
Note: The measured delay was the same as when synced at -20dB.
View attachment 29355View attachment 29356View attachment 29357View attachment 29358View attachment 29359View attachment 29360View attachment 29361View attachment 29362View attachment 29363View attachment 29364View attachment 29365View attachment 29366View attachment 29367View attachment 29368

If you want to continue experimenting (not that there's really a need for it), what you could try to do next is:

• Try to increase the crossover to e.g. 100Hz. Re-run sub sync function and re-run RoomFit and compare vs the crossover at 80Hz. The idea here is to see if the response between 50-100Hz changes much with a different crossover point.
• Try a few alternative positions for the sub. I'd suggest to try both front corners (right in the corner, against both walls), and against the wall between the speakers. At each position re-run sub sync function and re-run RoomFit. The intention here is to see if any other position decreases the 40Hz resonance somewhat.

With any of these variants the intention is just to see if the response pre-RoomFit can be improved.
The response after RoomFit should look similar to what you get already at your current positions with subwoofer level at -10dB, phase at 0°, and 9ms delay for the speakers - there should be no dips/cancellations.
This is why I say it is not really necessary to continue experimenting - so I'd suggest to only do it only if you find the experimentation interesting. If not, just sit back and enjoy the music!

 

[Lagavulin]

Great work!

I'd say this new attempt shows that your original calibration with subwoofer level at -10dB, phase at 0°, and 9ms delay for the speakers is the way to go.
The delay value of 9ms is IMHO more reasonable than 13ms. You get a higher delay value with phase set to 180° because the system is trying to compensate for the phase mismatch between the speakers and the sub at the crossover.
Note that SVS sub DSP adds about 6ms and the difference in speaker/sub distance should add 2-3ms more which comes around 8-9ms total - which is just what you get with phase set to 0°.

So this is the setup and calibration I believe you should return to:


If you want to continue experimenting (not that there's really a need for it), what you could try to do next is:

• Try to increase the crossover to e.g. 100Hz. Re-run sub sync function and re-run RoomFit and compare vs the crossover at 80Hz. The idea here is to see if the response between 50-100Hz changes much with a different crossover point.
• Try a few alternative positions for the sub. I'd suggest to try both front corners (right in the corner, against both walls), and against the wall between the speakers. At each position re-run sub sync function and re-run RoomFit. The intention here is to see if any other position decreases the 40Hz resonance somewhat.

With any of these variants the intention is just to see if the response pre-RoomFit can be improved.
The response after RoomFit should look similar to what you get already at your current positions with subwoofer level at -10dB, phase at 0°, and 9ms delay for the speakers - there should be no dips/cancellations.
This is why I say it is not really necessary to continue experimenting - so I'd suggest to only do it only if you find the experimentation interesting. If not, just sit back and enjoy the music!

Brilliant thanks for this @dominikz
I have time on my side to try different things like using the Ultra's EQ and if I want the SVS apps EQ.
The only thing is it sounds so good at -20dB and 180 phase and controlling the volume with the Ultra

 

[dominikz]

Brilliant thanks for this @dominikz
I have time on my side to try different things like using the Ultra's EQ and if I want the SVS apps EQ.
The only thing is it sounds so good at -20dB and 180 phase and controlling the volume with the Ultra

If you're happy with how it sounds then that is absolutely the most important thing. Enjoy it!

 

[Lagavulin]

Just for the fun of it ... just dropped a pair of harbeth's P3esr into place without any new measurements. No sub sync or RoomFit ... I just let the music play from the Ultra and Vibelink setup as before.
Bloody brilliant ... the baby harbeths are renowned for their mids and with the SVS filling in the bass I could gladly live with such a simple setup.
Of course I won't as I have more speakers and amplifiers than I have rooms
But if anyone wants to know what the baby harbeths can do just add a sub, ultra, Vibelink or more likely an Amp Ultra ... just brilliant at least to my ears