WiiM Ultra

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Updated on 5/25/2024

Check out this fuller thread about our official announcement of the WiiM Ultra - https://forum.wiimhome.com/threads/meet-wiim-ultra-the-digital-hub-for-your-music.3487/

Updated on 4/19/2024

Hi Team,

We're excited to give you a sneak peek at the WiiM Ultra, your future go-to digital hub for all things music! We're putting the final touches on this innovative product and are on track for a Q2 release. Stay tuned for more updates as we gear up for launch!

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Original message by Brantome:
As mentioned in a user reply from the WiiM/Linkplay CEO on the WiiM Fan Page on Facebook, WiiM are developing a new device called the WiiM Ultra which will have a screen, aluminium case and USB audio output. It should be available Q2 2024, so a good five to six months away.

Guess @Smartplug is due a prize (e.g. I'll lay off gently ribbing them about their constant 'when' questions) as I think they first suggested that name a while ago ;):ROFLMAO:

That's the entirety of the information I have, but WiiM do say they'll release more details in due course.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Click to expand...
so there's no point in having an ultra with another dac..there's no point in using another dac than the internal one of the "plus" , not use of usb and extern dac etc etc... right?
 
Steve Woodhouse said:
Yes there is.

Is this going to turn into panto?
Click to expand...
Here's why even "transparent" measuring DACs still have room for audible improvements, despite their excellent technical performance:

  • Measurements don't tell the whole story: Standard audio measurements like THD (Total Harmonic Distortion), SINAD (Signal-to-Noise and Distortion Ratio), and frequency response capture vital aspects of a DAC's performance. However, they don't fully reflect the nuances of how those technical aspects translate into the subjective experience of listening to music.
  • Transient response and microdynamics: How a DAC handles rapid changes in the signal (transients) has a significant impact on the perceived detail, realism, and "punch" of music. A DAC with excellent transient response can make instruments sound more lifelike and reveal subtle details that might be lost with a lesser DAC, even if both measure similarly in standard tests.
  • Jitter: Jitter refers to tiny timing errors in the digital audio stream. While modern DACs can minimize jitter, minuscule amounts still exist. This jitter can smear the fine details and soundstage of music, even if it doesn't register on traditional distortion measurements.
  • Power supply: The DAC's power supply plays a critical role in its performance. A well-regulated, low-noise power supply helps isolate the sensitive analog circuitry from interference, leading to a cleaner, more detailed sound. Two DACs might have similar technical measurements, but differences in their power supply implementation could lead to audible sonic differences.
  • Analog output stage: The design of the analog output stage of the DAC, which amplifies and prepares the signal for your headphones or speakers, can significantly influence the overall sound signature. The choice of components and circuit design subtly shape the final presentation of the music.
  • Psychological factors: Subjective perception, listening environment, and even a listener's mood can influence their interpretation of sound quality. Someone may find a DAC with slightly "warmer" sound more pleasing, even if a "colder" measuring counterpart performs better technically.
Key takeaway: While "transparent" measuring DACs offer a high baseline of technical excellence, the pursuit of ultimate audiophile sound focuses on the nuances of implementation, circuit design, and subtle aspects of sonic reproduction that might not be fully captured by standard measurements.
 
canard said:
so there's no point in having an ultra with another dac..there's no point in using another dac than the internal one of the "plus" , not use of usb and extern dac etc etc... right?
Click to expand...

SINAD on the Pro Plus is c.113dB,

Dynamic Range is over 117dB.

Jitter is below 130db.

Linearity and frequency response are both perfect.

All of the above are beyond the threshold of human audibility.

If someone wants anything ‘better’, I suppose it’s up to them to specify what and why.
 
steadyshot said:
Here's why even "transparent" measuring DACs still have room for audible improvements, despite their excellent technical performance:

  • Measurements don't tell the whole story: Standard audio measurements like THD (Total Harmonic Distortion), SINAD (Signal-to-Noise and Distortion Ratio), and frequency response capture vital aspects of a DAC's performance. However, they don't fully reflect the nuances of how those technical aspects translate into the subjective experience of listening to music.
  • Transient response and microdynamics: How a DAC handles rapid changes in the signal (transients) has a significant impact on the perceived detail, realism, and "punch" of music. A DAC with excellent transient response can make instruments sound more lifelike and reveal subtle details that might be lost with a lesser DAC, even if both measure similarly in standard tests.
  • Jitter: Jitter refers to tiny timing errors in the digital audio stream. While modern DACs can minimize jitter, minuscule amounts still exist. This jitter can smear the fine details and soundstage of music, even if it doesn't register on traditional distortion measurements.
  • Power supply: The DAC's power supply plays a critical role in its performance. A well-regulated, low-noise power supply helps isolate the sensitive analog circuitry from interference, leading to a cleaner, more detailed sound. Two DACs might have similar technical measurements, but differences in their power supply implementation could lead to audible sonic differences.
  • Analog output stage: The design of the analog output stage of the DAC, which amplifies and prepares the signal for your headphones or speakers, can significantly influence the overall sound signature. The choice of components and circuit design subtly shape the final presentation of the music.
  • Psychological factors: Subjective perception, listening environment, and even a listener's mood can influence their interpretation of sound quality. Someone may find a DAC with slightly "warmer" sound more pleasing, even if a "colder" measuring counterpart performs better technically.
Key takeaway: While "transparent" measuring DACs offer a high baseline of technical excellence, the pursuit of ultimate audiophile sound focuses on the nuances of implementation, circuit design, and subtle aspects of sonic reproduction that might not be fully captured by standard measurements.
Click to expand...

Regarding ‘measurements don’t tell the whole story’. Yes they do.

If you think there’s some other aspect of sound reproduction and human hearing, it’s up to you to specify what that is.

More in a mo.

On transient response, the Pro Plus has been measured at up to 20kHz. How rapid do you want? Because any more rapid is beyond the threshold of human hearing.

Jitter - that's been measured and covered.

Power supply, that's snake oil.


Analogue output stage - the measurements taken are digital in to analogue out (inclusive) so the analogue outs are already contained within the measurement.

Psychological factors - sure, if you feel grump, that might inhibit your listening. That has nothing to do with the performance of the DAC.

Key takeway - stop believing snake oil. Follow the science. If you're not prepared to do so, please stop taking medicines or flying on planes, because they work and have been tested using the scientific method, as have the above tests.

Maybe if you feel happy your plane is more likely to fly?
 
Last edited:
Steve Woodhouse said:
Regarding ‘measurements don’t tell the whole story’. Yes they do.

If you think there’s some other aspect of sound reproduction and human hearing, it’s up to you to specify what that is.

More in a mo.
Click to expand...
There are explanations,nothing more to add. I mainly added that for general reference
 
To be honest none of this matters, if I plug in my WiiM to my amp and speakers (or direct to my speakers in one system), and it sounds good it's more than suitable.

People who are smarter than me have made efforts to ensure that the WiiM sounds decent with a good mastered recording, and that's enough for most listening.
 
Here's a breakdown on the measurability and design improvement in these areas:

Measurable (But Not with Standard Metrics)

  • Transient Response: While not typically included in basic DAC specifications, transient response is measurable. Specialized tests with square waves and impulse responses can reveal how quickly and accurately a DAC responds to sudden shifts in the signal.
  • Jitter: Jitter can be measured with specific equipment and software. The resulting measurements reveal the amount and types of timing errors present.
  • Power Supply Quality: Noise levels, ripple, and stability of a power supply can be measured with standard electronics instruments like oscilloscopes and multimeters.
Difficult to Directly Measure

  • Microdynamics: While somewhat correlated with transient response, precisely quantifying "microdynamics" is challenging. There isn't a single, universally agreed-upon metric for this aspect of sound reproduction.
  • Analog Output Stage: While you can measure standard characteristics of an amplifier stage (frequency response, distortion, etc.), capturing the subtle sonic nuances introduced by specific design choices is harder to quantify.
  • Psychological Factors: The subjective experience of listening is inherently impossible to put into pure metrics.
How Engineers Improve These Aspects

Even when direct measurement is difficult, engineers rely on several strategies to enhance the performance of their DACs in these areas:

  • Extensive Research & Development: Designing high-performance audio circuits is a continuous process of research, experimentation, and refinement. Engineers draw upon existing knowledge and research related to circuit design, power supply optimization, component selection, and more.
  • Listening Tests: Experienced engineers and audiophiles often use critical listening sessions to evaluate and compare different DAC designs. While subjective, these tests help guide refinements that might not be apparent from measurements alone.
  • Focus on Specific Measurements: Even if the overall subjective quality is complex to measure, engineers focus on improving those measurable aspects that correlate with better sound, like reducing jitter levels or enhancing transient response.
  • Component Selection and Circuit Design: Careful attention to parts quality (capacitors, resistors, op-amps), circuit layouts, signal paths, and grounding schemes play a significant role in optimizing a DAC's performance, even if not captured by simple measurements.
In Summary

While not every aspect of a DAC's influence on sound quality has a clean corresponding metric, engineers utilize a combination of measurable targets, specialized tests, subjective evaluation, and design experience to continuously improve their designs beyond what standard DAC measurements might reveal.

Techniques

Jitter Reduction

  • High-Quality Master Clock: The heart of a DAC's timing accuracy is its clock source. Precision oscillators with ultra-low phase noise minimize jitter right at the source.
  • Re-clocking: Some DACs employ re-clocking circuits. These essentially rebuild the digital audio stream using a cleaner, more accurate clock, significantly reducing incoming jitter from the source.
  • Buffering: A data buffer temporarily stores the incoming digital audio. This can help smooth out momentary fluctuations and inconsistencies in the data stream, reducing the impact of jitter.
  • Careful PCB Design: Engineers meticulously plan the circuit board layout to isolate sensitive clock signals and minimize interference pathways that could introduce jitter.
Transient Response Optimization

  • Output Stage Bandwidth: Ensuring the DAC's analog output stage has a wide frequency bandwidth allows it to accurately reproduce fast-rising edges of musical signals (like a sudden drum hit).
  • Feedback Loops: Judicious use of negative feedback loops in the analog stage can improve linearity and responsiveness, enhancing transient accuracy.
  • Component Choice: Selection of capacitors and resistors with low parasitic inductance and capacitance helps preserve the integrity of fast-changing signals.
Power Supply Enhancement

  • Low-Noise Regulators: Utilizing voltage regulators specifically designed for low noise minimizes ripple and fluctuations in the power rails feeding the audio circuitry.
  • Isolation and Filtering: Employing multiple power supply stages with isolation between them (using transformers or separate regulators) keeps noise from digital sections from contaminating sensitive analog signals.
  • Capacitor Selection: Careful choice of capacitor types (material, value) helps filter noise and provide a stable energy reserve for demanding musical passages.
Other Considerations

  • Differential Circuitry: Using balanced, differential signal paths throughout the DAC can inherently reject common-mode noise and interference, contributing to a cleaner signal.
  • Materials and Construction: Even the choice of chassis materials and internal shielding can subtly influence the electromagnetic environment in which the DAC operates, potentially impacting microdynamics and noise performance.
Important Note: These techniques come with cost and design complexity trade-offs. Striking the right balance between performance, features, and price point is part of the art of DAC engineering.
 
steadyshot said:
Here's a breakdown on the measurability and design improvement in these areas:

Measurable (But Not with Standard Metrics)

  • Transient Response: While not typically included in basic DAC specifications, transient response is measurable. Specialized tests with square waves and impulse responses can reveal how quickly and accurately a DAC responds to sudden shifts in the signal.
  • Jitter: Jitter can be measured with specific equipment and software. The resulting measurements reveal the amount and types of timing errors present.
  • Power Supply Quality: Noise levels, ripple, and stability of a power supply can be measured with standard electronics instruments like oscilloscopes and multimeters.
Difficult to Directly Measure

  • Microdynamics: While somewhat correlated with transient response, precisely quantifying "microdynamics" is challenging. There isn't a single, universally agreed-upon metric for this aspect of sound reproduction.
  • Analog Output Stage: While you can measure standard characteristics of an amplifier stage (frequency response, distortion, etc.), capturing the subtle sonic nuances introduced by specific design choices is harder to quantify.
  • Psychological Factors: The subjective experience of listening is inherently impossible to put into pure metrics.
How Engineers Improve These Aspects

Even when direct measurement is difficult, engineers rely on several strategies to enhance the performance of their DACs in these areas:

  • Extensive Research & Development: Designing high-performance audio circuits is a continuous process of research, experimentation, and refinement. Engineers draw upon existing knowledge and research related to circuit design, power supply optimization, component selection, and more.
  • Listening Tests: Experienced engineers and audiophiles often use critical listening sessions to evaluate and compare different DAC designs. While subjective, these tests help guide refinements that might not be apparent from measurements alone.
  • Focus on Specific Measurements: Even if the overall subjective quality is complex to measure, engineers focus on improving those measurable aspects that correlate with better sound, like reducing jitter levels or enhancing transient response.
  • Component Selection and Circuit Design: Careful attention to parts quality (capacitors, resistors, op-amps), circuit layouts, signal paths, and grounding schemes play a significant role in optimizing a DAC's performance, even if not captured by simple measurements.
In Summary

While not every aspect of a DAC's influence on sound quality has a clean corresponding metric, engineers utilize a combination of measurable targets, specialized tests, subjective evaluation, and design experience to continuously improve their designs beyond what standard DAC measurements might reveal.

Techniques

Jitter Reduction

  • High-Quality Master Clock: The heart of a DAC's timing accuracy is its clock source. Precision oscillators with ultra-low phase noise minimize jitter right at the source.
  • Re-clocking: Some DACs employ re-clocking circuits. These essentially rebuild the digital audio stream using a cleaner, more accurate clock, significantly reducing incoming jitter from the source.
  • Buffering: A data buffer temporarily stores the incoming digital audio. This can help smooth out momentary fluctuations and inconsistencies in the data stream, reducing the impact of jitter.
  • Careful PCB Design: Engineers meticulously plan the circuit board layout to isolate sensitive clock signals and minimize interference pathways that could introduce jitter.
Transient Response Optimization

  • Output Stage Bandwidth: Ensuring the DAC's analog output stage has a wide frequency bandwidth allows it to accurately reproduce fast-rising edges of musical signals (like a sudden drum hit).
  • Feedback Loops: Judicious use of negative feedback loops in the analog stage can improve linearity and responsiveness, enhancing transient accuracy.
  • Component Choice: Selection of capacitors and resistors with low parasitic inductance and capacitance helps preserve the integrity of fast-changing signals.
Power Supply Enhancement

  • Low-Noise Regulators: Utilizing voltage regulators specifically designed for low noise minimizes ripple and fluctuations in the power rails feeding the audio circuitry.
  • Isolation and Filtering: Employing multiple power supply stages with isolation between them (using transformers or separate regulators) keeps noise from digital sections from contaminating sensitive analog signals.
  • Capacitor Selection: Careful choice of capacitor types (material, value) helps filter noise and provide a stable energy reserve for demanding musical passages.
Other Considerations

  • Differential Circuitry: Using balanced, differential signal paths throughout the DAC can inherently reject common-mode noise and interference, contributing to a cleaner signal.
  • Materials and Construction: Even the choice of chassis materials and internal shielding can subtly influence the electromagnetic environment in which the DAC operates, potentially impacting microdynamics and noise performance.
Important Note: These techniques come with cost and design complexity trade-offs. Striking the right balance between performance, features, and price point is part of the art of DAC engineering.
Click to expand...

Would you like to share with the community where you’ve copy and pasted that from?
 
steadyshot said:
Gemini Advanced
Click to expand...

So that's AI repeating what it's discovered at a site. You do know, you can ask AI sites to explain why the world is flat, and it'll give you an answer that sounds credible.

It always makes me laugh when people talk about transients in hi-fi electronics. Let's have a think about what this means.

A 20kHz signal has to oscillate - go one way, do a full 180 turn around, go back the opposite way, 20,000 times a second, and it can be measured (as with the Pro Plus) to do so accurately (the signal coming out is exactly 20kHz) with a level of distortion which has been scientifically proven to be below the threshold of human hearing.

But you'll always get someone who says "It's transients", as if that actually proves, let alone means anything whatsoever.

If two transparent DACs can sound different, they should be easy to spot in a blind test. And yet, despite any number of controlled tests, no one has ever been able to.

So if you think you can tell the difference, go to the scientific community, and let's see it tested properly. Until such a time as anyone does that, and shows they can hear a difference, I'll stick with the science as we understand it at the moment.

Everyone is, of course, welcome to believe what they wish. But personally, I'll expect the same standards as I would from any other area of scientific knowledge and testing, until such a time as an issue has been proven.
 
steadyshot said:
Here's a breakdown on the measurability and design improvement in these areas:

Measurable (But Not with Standard Metrics)

  • Transient Response: While not typically included in basic DAC specifications, transient response is measurable. Specialized tests with square waves and impulse responses can reveal how quickly and accurately a DAC responds to sudden shifts in the signal.
  • Jitter: Jitter can be measured with specific equipment and software. The resulting measurements reveal the amount and types of timing errors present.
  • Power Supply Quality: Noise levels, ripple, and stability of a power supply can be measured with standard electronics instruments like oscilloscopes and multimeters.
Difficult to Directly Measure

  • Microdynamics: While somewhat correlated with transient response, precisely quantifying "microdynamics" is challenging. There isn't a single, universally agreed-upon metric for this aspect of sound reproduction.
  • Analog Output Stage: While you can measure standard characteristics of an amplifier stage (frequency response, distortion, etc.), capturing the subtle sonic nuances introduced by specific design choices is harder to quantify.
  • Psychological Factors: The subjective experience of listening is inherently impossible to put into pure metrics.
How Engineers Improve These Aspects

Even when direct measurement is difficult, engineers rely on several strategies to enhance the performance of their DACs in these areas:

  • Extensive Research & Development: Designing high-performance audio circuits is a continuous process of research, experimentation, and refinement. Engineers draw upon existing knowledge and research related to circuit design, power supply optimization, component selection, and more.
  • Listening Tests: Experienced engineers and audiophiles often use critical listening sessions to evaluate and compare different DAC designs. While subjective, these tests help guide refinements that might not be apparent from measurements alone.
  • Focus on Specific Measurements: Even if the overall subjective quality is complex to measure, engineers focus on improving those measurable aspects that correlate with better sound, like reducing jitter levels or enhancing transient response.
  • Component Selection and Circuit Design: Careful attention to parts quality (capacitors, resistors, op-amps), circuit layouts, signal paths, and grounding schemes play a significant role in optimizing a DAC's performance, even if not captured by simple measurements.
In Summary

While not every aspect of a DAC's influence on sound quality has a clean corresponding metric, engineers utilize a combination of measurable targets, specialized tests, subjective evaluation, and design experience to continuously improve their designs beyond what standard DAC measurements might reveal.

Techniques

Jitter Reduction

  • High-Quality Master Clock: The heart of a DAC's timing accuracy is its clock source. Precision oscillators with ultra-low phase noise minimize jitter right at the source.
  • Re-clocking: Some DACs employ re-clocking circuits. These essentially rebuild the digital audio stream using a cleaner, more accurate clock, significantly reducing incoming jitter from the source.
  • Buffering: A data buffer temporarily stores the incoming digital audio. This can help smooth out momentary fluctuations and inconsistencies in the data stream, reducing the impact of jitter.
  • Careful PCB Design: Engineers meticulously plan the circuit board layout to isolate sensitive clock signals and minimize interference pathways that could introduce jitter.
Transient Response Optimization

  • Output Stage Bandwidth: Ensuring the DAC's analog output stage has a wide frequency bandwidth allows it to accurately reproduce fast-rising edges of musical signals (like a sudden drum hit).
  • Feedback Loops: Judicious use of negative feedback loops in the analog stage can improve linearity and responsiveness, enhancing transient accuracy.
  • Component Choice: Selection of capacitors and resistors with low parasitic inductance and capacitance helps preserve the integrity of fast-changing signals.
Power Supply Enhancement

  • Low-Noise Regulators: Utilizing voltage regulators specifically designed for low noise minimizes ripple and fluctuations in the power rails feeding the audio circuitry.
  • Isolation and Filtering: Employing multiple power supply stages with isolation between them (using transformers or separate regulators) keeps noise from digital sections from contaminating sensitive analog signals.
  • Capacitor Selection: Careful choice of capacitor types (material, value) helps filter noise and provide a stable energy reserve for demanding musical passages.
Other Considerations

  • Differential Circuitry: Using balanced, differential signal paths throughout the DAC can inherently reject common-mode noise and interference, contributing to a cleaner signal.
  • Materials and Construction: Even the choice of chassis materials and internal shielding can subtly influence the electromagnetic environment in which the DAC operates, potentially impacting microdynamics and noise performance.
Important Note: These techniques come with cost and design complexity trade-offs. Striking the right balance between performance, features, and price point is part of the art of DAC engineering.
Click to expand...
While this is an impressive list, the vast majority of these distortions have been out of the audible range for decades.

My 1981 Technics su-v5 is hardly top of the line (I have better amps in my collection than it) but it boasts 0.005% THD+N, and it's bigger brother 0.003%, while you can probably get better than this now, it really isn't going to be audible at all.

It feels like "gaming the measurements" might justify something costing more to some, but what does it sound like?
 
Steve Woodhouse said:
So that's AI repeating what it's discovered at a site. You do know, you can ask AI sites to explain why the world is flat, and it'll give you an answer that sounds credible.

It always makes me laugh when people talk about transients in hi-fi electronics. Let's have a think about what this means.

A 20kHz signal has to oscillate - go one way, do a full 180 turn around, go back the opposite way, 20,000 times a second, and it can be measured (as with the Pro Plus) to do so accurately (the signal coming out is exactly 20kHz) with a level of distortion which has been scientifically proven to be below the threshold of human hearing.

But you'll always get someone who says "It's transients", as if that actually proves, let alone means anything whatsoever.

If two transparent DACs can sound different, they should be easy to spot in a blind test. And yet, despite any number of controlled tests, no one has ever been able to.

So if you think you can tell the difference, go to the scientific community, and let's see it tested properly. Until such a time as anyone does that, and shows they can hear a difference, I'll stick with the science as we understand it at the moment.

Everyone is, of course, welcome to believe what they wish. But personally, I'll expect the same standards as I would from any other area of scientific knowledge and testing, until such a time as an issue has been proven.
Click to expand...
1709220039698.png
 
All this talk of measurements, yet no-one seems to think about what it might actaully sound like.

This is why I end up preferring vintage kit, it sounds nice, and is simple to use.
 
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