Ongoing Beta Beta Test: Precision Room Correction with FDW (Frequency-Dependent Windowing)

Perhaps first it would be good to take one step back and explain impulse response windowing in general.

May I suggest reading this short miniDSP article on the subject? It illustrates very nicely how gating of the in-room measured impulse response filters-out reflections and thereby only the loudspeaker direct sound remains.
On the same topic I suggest to also have a look at this amazing post by napilopez over at ASR. I very much recommend reading it as well.

The (very) short and dirty explanation is that the direct sound takes the fastest path to the microphone (i.e. straight line) so comes earlier than any reflections (which all take indirect paths since they need to bounce off something).
We then cut-off (i.e. "window") the measured impulse response at the point just before the reflection reaches the microphone, thereby filtering out all of the reflections.

When this technique is used to measure loudspeakers it is often called "quasi-anechoic" method, and it can be used to create loudspeaker measurements that are comparable to those from anechoic chambers and Klippel NFS, perfectly matching them above about 1kHz (though some resolution is lost below 1kHz due to gating).

FDW (frequency-dependent windowing) is following the same concept of windowing the impulse response to filter-out the reflected sound, but it does this with different window lengths at different frequencies - specifically by decreasing window length as frequency increases. This means that the reflected sound is kept in the response at low frequencies, but is progressively filtered out as frequency increases.

Let's now look at the example from REW help:

Note that a 100Hz tone has a cycle length of 10ms (1/100 s), and a 10kHz tone has a cycle length of 0.1ms (1/10000 s) - so if we set FDW window length instead to 5 cycles we'd get:
10Hz -> 5 x 100ms = 500ms
20Hz -> 5 x 50ms = 250ms
50Hz -> 5 x 20ms = 100ms
100Hz -> 5 x 10ms = 50ms
200Hz -> 5 x 5ms = 25ms
500Hz -> 5 x 2ms = 10ms
1kHz -> 5 x 1ms = 5ms
2kHz -> 5 x 0,5ms = 2,5ms
5kHz -> 5 x 0,2ms = 1ms
Etc...

If we now assume a trivial example where both a loudspeaker and a microphone are both 1m above the floor, but 2,5m apart we can calculate that the floor reflection will arrive to the microphone ~2ms after the direct sound. This means that our 5-cycle FDW should filter out the effect of this floor reflection completely above ~2,5kHz, but it will keep the floor reflection effects in the response below 2,5kHz.

Hopefully this also illustrates the issue with FDW - not all rooms will have the same layout, and not everyone will position their loudspeakers the same - so the FDW cycle setting cannot be universal for every room/layout/placement.

Also, since we have multiple reflective surfaces around the loudspeaker and the listening position (MLP), with their different path lengths, the various reflections will come with different delays after the direct sound to the MLP - this means that a specific FDW cycle setting will not be equally effective at removing all of these reflections at specific frequency ranges.

To sum up - IMHO FDW is an interesting concept to experiment with, but I've personally always found it less effective and more complicated than simply using MMM with variable smoothing in REW to correct resonances below the room transition frequency (usually below 400Hz).
Corrections above the room transition frequency are not "room correction" anymore, it becomes "loudspeaker correction" instead - and this better done based on anechoic measurements rather than FDW.
Note that a lot of EQ presets for various loudspeaker models based on anechoic measurements can be found on spinorama.org.
It's very generous of you.... ;-) It is perhaps essential that people realize above all:
"Corrections above the room transition frequency are not "room correction" anymore, it becomes "loudspeaker correction" instead - and this better done based on anechoic measurements rather than FDW."



but also the element concerning the correction typically above 1k...the famous "target curve."...
which in reality was largely in part just the observation of a natural fall linked to the distance to the source.. with not necessarily, except in close listening, the need for great efforts....
;-)
 
Perhaps first it would be good to take one step back and explain impulse response windowing in general.

May I suggest reading this short miniDSP article on the subject? It illustrates very nicely how gating of the in-room measured impulse response filters-out reflections and thereby only the loudspeaker direct sound remains.
On the same topic I suggest to also have a look at this amazing post by napilopez over at ASR. I very much recommend reading it as well.

The (very) short and dirty explanation is that the direct sound takes the fastest path to the microphone (i.e. straight line) so comes earlier than any reflections (which all take indirect paths since they need to bounce off something).
We then cut-off (i.e. "window") the measured impulse response at the point just before the reflection reaches the microphone, thereby filtering out all of the reflections.

When this technique is used to measure loudspeakers it is often called "quasi-anechoic" method, and it can be used to create loudspeaker measurements that are comparable to those from anechoic chambers and Klippel NFS, perfectly matching them above about 1kHz (though some resolution is lost below 1kHz due to gating).

FDW (frequency-dependent windowing) is following the same concept of windowing the impulse response to filter-out the reflected sound, but it does this with different window lengths at different frequencies - specifically by decreasing window length as frequency increases. This means that the reflected sound is kept in the response at low frequencies, but is progressively filtered out as frequency increases.

Let's now look at the example from REW help:

Note that a 100Hz tone has a cycle length of 10ms (1/100 s), and a 10kHz tone has a cycle length of 0.1ms (1/10000 s) - so if we set FDW window length instead to 5 cycles we'd get:
10Hz -> 5 x 100ms = 500ms
20Hz -> 5 x 50ms = 250ms
50Hz -> 5 x 20ms = 100ms
100Hz -> 5 x 10ms = 50ms
200Hz -> 5 x 5ms = 25ms
500Hz -> 5 x 2ms = 10ms
1kHz -> 5 x 1ms = 5ms
2kHz -> 5 x 0,5ms = 2,5ms
5kHz -> 5 x 0,2ms = 1ms
Etc...

If we now assume a trivial example where both a loudspeaker and a microphone are both 1m above the floor, but 2,5m apart we can calculate that the floor reflection will arrive to the microphone ~2ms after the direct sound. This means that our 5-cycle FDW should filter out the effect of this floor reflection completely above ~2,5kHz, but it will keep the floor reflection effects in the response below 2,5kHz.

Hopefully this also illustrates the issue with FDW - not all rooms will have the same layout, and not everyone will position their loudspeakers the same - so the FDW cycle setting cannot be universal for every room/layout/placement.

Also, since we have multiple reflective surfaces around the loudspeaker and the listening position (MLP), with their different path lengths, the various reflections will come with different delays after the direct sound to the MLP - this means that a specific FDW cycle setting will not be equally effective at removing all of these reflections at specific frequency ranges.

To sum up - IMHO FDW is an interesting concept to experiment with, but I've personally always found it less effective and more complicated than simply using MMM with variable smoothing in REW to correct resonances below the room transition frequency (usually below 400Hz).
Corrections above the room transition frequency are not "room correction" anymore, it becomes "loudspeaker correction" instead - and this better done based on anechoic measurements rather than FDW.
Note that a lot of EQ presets for various loudspeaker models based on anechoic measurements can be found on spinorama.org.
Wow thanks for the comprehensive response 👍. I eventually found out how to use FDW in REW by selecting the "IR Window" from the tools menu.
So ideally we need to be able to select the window size to suit the room.
Have you tried it on your system yet?
 
It's very generous of you.... ;-) It is perhaps essential that people realize above all:
"Corrections above the room transition frequency are not "room correction" anymore, it becomes "loudspeaker correction" instead - and this better done based on anechoic measurements rather than FDW."



but also the element concerning the correction typically above 1k...the famous "target curve."...
which in reality was largely in part just the observation of a natural fall linked to the distance to the source.. with not necessarily, except in close listening, the need for great efforts....
;-)
I only correct up to 400Hz but the FDW changes the overall balance of the sound.
 
Wow thanks for the comprehensive response 👍. I eventually found out how to use FDW in REW by selecting the "IR Window" from the tools menu.
So ideally we need to be able to select the window size to suit the room.
Have you tried it on your system yet?
So far I only did a very quick test, and from frequency magnitude response correction perspective it seems to me to work as expected - i.e. not that much different to just using the regular 1/12 smoothing (if you only correct in low frequencies):
1742895602697.png
EDIT: The smoothing in the low frequencies is slightly different - as you can see - so the correction will definitely sound slightly different. Some people may prefer the use of less-sharp correction filters.

Looking at the high frequencies we see that the default FDW cycle setting is not suitable at all for my desktop system - this might work better in my living room. But that is not a problem for me either way as I don't apply any correction in higher frequencies.

So far I haven't checked to see if any kind of additional phase correction is done (though I doubt it) - I'll try to test this in the coming days. I hope not, to be honest - I almost never found phase correction to be beneficial.
 
I only correct up to 400Hz but the FDW changes the overall balance of the sound.
I don't have much experience in "pure" room correction... just more dedicated-specific approaches, and the associated precautions... so I won't go into these subjects much ;-)

there is no shortage of experienced people... but if the subject were simple and successful... that would be known...

(the """ mmm"" approach seems to be the thing that really need to comes to fruition quickly here for the general public....)
;-)
 
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So far I only did a very quick test, and from frequency magnitude response correction perspective it seems to me to work as expected - i.e. not that much different to just using the regular 1/12 smoothing (if you only correct in low frequencies):
View attachment 18904
EDIT: The smoothing in the low frequencies is slightly different - as you can see - so the correction will definitely sound slightly different. Some people may prefer the use of less-sharp correction filters.

Looking at the high frequencies we see that the default FDW cycle setting is not suitable at all for my desktop system - this might work better in my living room. But that is not a problem for me either way as I don't apply any correction in higher frequencies.

So far I haven't checked to see if any kind of additional phase correction is done (though I doubt it) - I'll try to test this in the coming days. I hope not, to be honest - I almost never found phase correction to be beneficial.
for the phase correction.. I fear it is quite linked to the requirement of what we listen to and the "learning" around it...
;-)
 
for the phase correction.. I fear it is quite linked to the requirement of what we listen to and the "learning" around it...
;-)
Sure, and I have spent significant time experimenting with phase correction and time-alignment, including doing controlled (blind and level-matched) listening tests.

The difference with and without FIR phase correction can absolutely be audible, but I haven't found it to be especially beneficial in most cases that are usually discussed.
The use-cases where it can IMO be beneficial are when aligning subs and mains, and when dealing with cancellations between multiple loudspeakers playing out of phase at certain frequencies.
Phase correction can however also be quite detrimental if overdone (e.g. heavy phase correction can introduce audible pre-ringing).

When this discussion is brought up I like to link to this AudioXpress article on the subject, with comments from eminent researchers in the field.
 
So far I only did a very quick test, and from frequency magnitude response correction perspective it seems to me to work as expected - i.e. not that much different to just using the regular 1/12 smoothing (if you only correct in low frequencies):
View attachment 18904
EDIT: The smoothing in the low frequencies is slightly different - as you can see - so the correction will definitely sound slightly different. Some people may prefer the use of less-sharp correction filters.

Looking at the high frequencies we see that the default FDW cycle setting is not suitable at all for my desktop system - this might work better in my living room. But that is not a problem for me either way as I don't apply any correction in higher frequencies.

So far I haven't checked to see if any kind of additional phase correction is done (though I doubt it) - I'll try to test this in the coming days. I hope not, to be honest - I almost never found phase correction to be beneficial.
One thing that wasn't clear to me was if the evaluation response is also using FDW. In REW if I enable FDW then the level of the higher frequencies is reduced so it makes sense that bass frequencies are reduced more after applying room correction.
I am not sure how to use REW to check the result of the WiiM correction with FDW as it seems to me that a simple measurement will not take into account the frequency dependent window.
 
Here is a comparison of the room correction filters for the precision vs standard RC. You can see that although the reduction around 60Hz is greater with the standard RC, the precision RC has more reduction below 60Hz.
Standard
Screenshot_20250325-151701.png

Precision
Screenshot_20250325-151545.png
 
Here is a comparison of the room correction filters for the precision vs standard RC. You can see that although the reduction around 60Hz is greater with the standard RC, the precision RC has more reduction below 60Hz.
Standard
View attachment 18907

Precision
View attachment 18908
You been actively doing measurements that I enjoy reading now how does it sound in your ear? You could get ruler flat but if your having difficulty heating treble you may find the sound dull and adjust the treble to your liking. Anyway, I did compare both but I would stick with it having it off. There was greater sense of clarity when it’s on but the soundstage was lacking on my personal preference.
 
You been actively doing measurements that I enjoy reading now how does it sound in your ear? You could get ruler flat but if your having difficulty heating treble you may find the sound dull and adjust the treble to your liking. Anyway, I did compare both but I would stick with it having it off.
Based on your earlier commentary, would you say having it on sounds, "more solid-state-like," and leaving it off sounds (comparatively/relatively) more, "tube-like?"

-Ed
 
Based on your earlier commentary, would you say having it on sounds, "more solid-state-like," and leaving it off sounds (comparatively/relatively) more, "tube-like?"

-Ed
Having it off the sound was diffused creating sense of larger sound field with decay and reverberation. Many listeners would say this kind of sound is coloration. Having it on like what @slartibartfast has improved its clarity which I agree on his sentiment. The final judgment will be on you which one you would prefer. I like how wiim give us option and the ability to turn it off if you don’t like it.
 
Based on your earlier commentary, would you say having it on sounds, "more solid-state-like," and leaving it off sounds (comparatively/relatively) more, "tube-like?"

-Ed
Which one you like better having it off or on?
[/QUOTE]
 
Based on your earlier commentary, would you say having it on sounds, "more solid-state-like," and leaving it off sounds (comparatively/relatively) more, "tube-like?"

-Ed
Which one you like better having it off or on?

I haven't tried/bothered testing it yet, as I currently leave the WiiM RC/PEQ disabled because I found the room correction from my DSPeaker Anti-Mode X2D sounds way better in direct comparison to the WiiM's RC (when compared independently against one another). When I attempted to, "stack," the WiiM correction on top of the Anti-Mode, it definitely sounded...less good, to put it politely.

I may play around with this new feature when I get a chance and see how it compares now. I may also try testing, "stacking," WiiM correction on top of the Anti-Mode only for 40-300Hz rather than the range I was trying previously (20-5000Hz).

Speakers are KEF LS50 Meta, subwoofer is SVS SB-3000, crossed over at 80Hz. Target curve is Harman. These are parameters that matter/need to be known with regards to my setup/testing setup.

-Ed
 
I wanted to try out this new RC function myself.
These are my settings :
48/4000KHz - Default Gain & Q - Multiple Pass - Dayton with imported calibration file - No Subwoofer. I haven’t it. - 1/12 octave smoothing.
These are my personal impressions :
FDW
1) To my ear, the bass has been reduced even too much
2) I had the impression that the sound recedes and shrinks in the centre
3) The sound becomes a bit cold
NORMAL RC
1) The bass is more present and, compared to the sound without RC, is more solid.
2) The sound is more forward projected and wider
3) The sound, on the whole, seems warmer to me
These are my impressions from my hearing.
I must add one thing. After listening to several tracks the feeling of poor bass has subsided.
It does come back, however, if I switch on the fly the RC’s type during a track.
I'm curious to hear more impressions about sound comparing the two RC.
Even if....100 people, 100 different ears and 100 different ways of perceiving sound.
 
I wanted to try out this new RC function myself.
These are my settings :
48/4000KHz - Default Gain & Q - Multiple Pass - Dayton with imported calibration file - No Subwoofer. I haven’t it. - 1/12 octave smoothing.
These are my personal impressions :
FDW
1) To my ear, the bass has been reduced even too much
2) I had the impression that the sound recedes and shrinks in the centre
3) The sound becomes a bit cold
NORMAL RC
1) The bass is more present and, compared to the sound without RC, is more solid.
2) The sound is more forward projected and wider
3) The sound, on the whole, seems warmer to me
These are my impressions from my hearing.
I must add one thing. After listening to several tracks the feeling of poor bass has subsided.
It does come back, however, if I switch on the fly the RC’s type during a track.
I'm curious to hear more impressions about sound comparing the two RC.
Even if....100 people, 100 different ears and 100 different ways of perceiving sound.
I had the same impression as you about the bass. At first I thought it was reduced too much but later it sounded more natural. I was using the B&K target.
 
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