Meet WiiM Ultra - The Digital Hub for Your Music

[WOWWIIM]

Well I pre-ordered the Ultra mainly because its wireless streaming and the Sub out capabilities to integrate with the low power tube amps I build. I did own the Wiim amp (very well built) and loved its simplicity/performance of it's Bass management App.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

That is misstating the situation so far as Logitech goes. They manufactured players through until 2012 if I’m not mistaken.

There have a few manufacturers wet their toe and since Raspberry Pi came along it has been very easy to self build a LMS player.

I do agree though that WiiM have been the first serious player in the consumer electronics sector to properly support Squeezelite. Those of us that have bought WiiMs for this purpose (quite a few of us) are grateful.

True; the Touch was introduced in 2010, and a few other different form factor devices (Duet, Boom, Radio) as well. But at the same time, the culture had shifted from innovating network streaming devices towards a mass-market growth market. In one sense, Logitech was too early for the market and gave up too quickly; since a few years later Sonos came along and largely took over that market. But Sonos was expensive and focused on selling speakers rather than a network streaming device within the audio chain.

The culture of engineering and commitment to network streaming was obviously lost in the transition not too long after Slim Devices was acquired. The Touch was a fantastic final product of the Slim Devices legacy... but then Logitech and the market in general went dark.

True, with a Raspberry Pi, someone could create a DYI product. But, that is not the same as placing an order for a device (that is commercially supported), having it delivered, and then just plugging it into your audio chain. And especially not a device with the large, easy to read screen of the SB3 and even better Touch.

IMHO, WiiM brings back a culture of development—driven by passionate engineers—as a product company that I haven't seen since Slim Devices for network streamers. We still don't have anything with a large screen that is readable from a distance, a very useful remote control, and even simultaneous output across digital and analog. But, with the advent of iOS / Android / HTML 5 that enable remote display and control, along with the proliferation of smart phones and tablets with high quality screens, those are not really a major hurdle anymore So to me, once WiiM added a native Squeezelite client, the WiiM Pro Plus became the first commercially available replacement for SB3 / Touch... from a company that feels like it shares the same DNA as Slim Devices.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

Correct me if I am mistaken but one advantage of XLR normally has higher voltage 4 volts vs 2 volts which aid in longer cable runs and better shielding as it has a extra grounding wire for the outer shielding of the cable also for longer runs to prevent interference from other equipment. I have a SMSL DO300 which has both XLR and Single ended output and I can not hear the difference feeding my Hypex NCX500 monos besides higher gain.

Even though I am one of the people requesting a WiiM Pro Plus Balanced, your experience is exactly what I would expect. And that everyone else (@dangermouse, @Smartplug, etc.) is saying as well. In a home audio setting with reasonable cable management, it is *extremely unlikely* that you will be able to hear the difference between balanced and unbalanced (assuming you have matched the volumes for proper A/B testing). Even if your RCA cables are reasonable long. And even if you are listening in the best of controlled listening conditions.

The technical benefits do exist. For live shows with long cable runs and nearby electrical lines. For studio mixing where you need to tightly control the headroom and noise floor across many stages of mixing, EQ, post-production processing, etc. But those are not benefits that should drive someone to replace their home audio with "balanced" equipment just because "it is better". [Edit: @onlyoneme added a good point that it can solve ground loop interference for those who are affected by that issue. Copying here for completeness.]

However, some of us are in environments where we do have balanced equipment. In some cases, because we bought home audio systems that support balanced for "that extra benefit". But in a lot of cases, because we are using high quality active speakers that were originally designed for a professional studio (Genelec, Neuman), or we are using DACs and DSPs from companies that primarily sell into the professional studio market (e.g., RME) instead of AVRs from Denon, Yamaha, Sony, etc. In such cases, the desire is to purchase input sources (e.g., network streamer, etc.) that are also studio "line-level" balanced. Even more so, when the unit cost would only be $30 to $60 higher than the unbalanced version.

 

[onlyoneme]

Correct me if I am mistaken but one advantage of XLR normally has higher voltage 4 volts vs 2 volts which aid in longer cable runs and better shielding as it has a extra grounding wire for the outer shielding of the cable also for longer runs to prevent interference from other equipment. I have a SMSL DO300 which has both XLR and Single ended output and I can not hear the difference feeding my Hypex NCX500 monos besides higher gain.

The biggest advantage in the home usage is a reduced risk of ground loops. And I have a feeling that they are pretty common in "audiophile" setups.

 

[WOWWIIM]

The biggest advantage in the home usage is a reduced risk of ground loops. And I have a feeling that they are pretty common in "audiophile" setups.

Well I would not know what an audiophile setup would consist of and probably could not afford it.

 

[cooky560]

Why do we even 4v line level? 0.15v line level was fine for years, and 2v just sounds far too loud too early in the volume dial. I dread to think what 4v would sound like, it might even kill my preamp.

I've never had a ground loop issue, with following very basic rules in terms where I connect things to power.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

Why do we even 4v line level? 0.15v line level was fine for years, and 2v just sounds far too loud too early in the volume dial. I dread to think what 4v would sound like, it might even kill my preamp.

Edit: to @cooky560's point, there is no need for 4V from a sound quality improvement perspective for home audio. My note below is about why 4V would even be mentioned in the context balanced outputs.

Something called line level standards: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_level



Do not plug a 4V into a consumer audio device. But conversely, a 4V balanced audio device matches the international *standards* for professional audio equipment, which is designed based on that as the nominal line level — whether received over a balanced or unbalanced input jack. But also worth noting: the nominal line level (e.g., 2V vs. 4V) is independent of whether a unit is sending balanced or unbalanced audio.

 

[dangermouse]

The biggest advantage in the home usage is a reduced risk of ground loops. And I have a feeling that they are pretty common in "audiophile" setups.

Been involved with hi-fi, boy and man, for sixty years now and never experienced a ground loop.

 

[cooky560]

Edit: to @cooky560's point, there is no need for 4V from a sound quality improvement perspective for home audio. My note below is about why 4V would even be mentioned in the context balanced outputs.

Something called line level standards: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_level

View attachment 7098

Do not plug a 4V into a consumer audio device. But conversely, a 4V balanced audio device matches the international *standards* for professional audio equipment, which is designed based on that as the nominal line level — whether received over a balanced or unbalanced input jack. But also worth noting: the nominal line level (e.g., 2V vs. 4V) is independent of whether a unit is sending balanced or unbalanced audio.

I still find that 2v is ludicrously high. I have my WiiM Pro Plus at 0.5v and it's still hitting 90db at well before 3/10 on the volume dial.

Every other source I have connected to that amp runs somewhere between 0.15v and 0.3v and hits 90db at 7/10, which seems more reasonable.

 

[Steve Woodhouse]

Ground loops. In ye olde dayes you had a CD player plugged into an amp, and that was it, as far as powered components went. Extremely rare to get a ground loop.

They’ve become more of an issue when you’ve added an extra layer, like a DAC, and particularly if a PC became involved.

A non-issue (or almost) with something like the Ultra, as it’s like going back to ye olde dayes, and it replaces the CD player.

 

[cooky560]

Ground loops. In ye olde dayes you had a CD player plugged into an amp, and that was it, as far as powered components went. Extremely rare to get a ground loop.

In the good old days you grounded your amp with your turntable. A PC doesn't have the same benefit.

 

[harkpabst]

Even though I am one of the people requesting a WiiM Pro Plus Balanced, your experience is exactly what I would expect. And that everyone else (@dangermouse, @Smartplug, etc.) is saying as well. In a home audio setting with reasonable cable management, it is *extremely unlikely* that you will be able to hear the difference between balanced and unbalanced (assuming you have matched the volumes for proper A/B testing). Even if your RCA cables are reasonable long. And even if you are listening in the best of controlled listening conditions.

The technical benefits do exist. For live shows with long cable runs and nearby electrical lines. For studio mixing where you need to tightly control the headroom and noise floor across many stages of mixing, EQ, post-production processing, etc. But those are not benefits that should drive someone to replace their home audio with "balanced" equipment just because "it is better".

However, some of us are in environments where we do have balanced equipment. In some cases, because we bought home audio systems that support balanced for "that extra benefit". But in a lot of cases, because we are using high quality active speakers that were originally designed for a professional studio (Genelec, Neuman), or we are using DACs and DSPs from companies that primarily sell into the professional studio market (e.g., RME) instead of AVRs from Denon, Yamaha, Sony, etc. In such cases, the desire is to purchase input sources (e.g., network streamer, etc.) that are also studio "line-level" balanced. Even more so, when the unit cost would only be $30 to $60 higher than the unbalanced version.

That's a fine summary.

I just have to point out that there's never been a line level standard for consumer electronics, just (different) conventions, as pointed out in Wikipedia.

150 mV (as mentioned by @cooky560) have been common with some devices once, but even 40+ years ago this mostly just applied to FM or AM radio signal receiving component (mostly called "tuners" back then). Even every cassette deck I can remember has been designed for higher levels. Higher end customer pre-amps (like e.g. Quad or Burmester to name just two) would allow to adjust the input sensitivity for a reason.

The benefits of balanced connections are all pretty clear. But it's also clear that you can get away without them in consumer electronics. Balanced connections simply have not become the norm here There's just a small portion of the market making use of them and a party of that market is "audiophile ChiFi". In the end, it's still a niche market (for home Hifi).

Production costs are one thing, but probably more sensitive than some might think. Remember that - as always - you can spend every dollar only once.

I strongly believe that balanced connections might even let casual buyers shy away from buying a piece of kit. Going balanced only would be commercial suicide, the majority of WiiM buyers don't even know that forums line this one do exist. Personally I wouldn't mind additional TRS connectors, if they could be fitted to the projected form factor.

PS:
I also find it kind of funny that in many domestic listening environments the voltage on the line connection might be just as high, maybe higher that the voltage on the speaker wires ...

 

[Steve Woodhouse]

That's a fine summary.

I just have to point out that there's never been a line level standard for consumer electronics, just (different) conventions, as pointed out in Wikipedia.

150 mV (as mentioned by @cooky560) have been common with some devices once, but even 40+ years ago this mostly just applied to FM or AM radio signal receiving component (mostly called "tuners" back then). Even every cassette deck I can remember has been designed for higher levels. Higher end customer pre-amps (like e.g. Quad or Burmester to name just two) would allow to adjust the input sensitivity for a reason.

The benefits of balanced connections are all pretty clear. But it's also clear that you can get away without them in consumer electronics. Balanced connections simply have not become the norm here There's just a small portion of the market making use of them and a party of that market is "audiophile ChiFi". In the end, it's still a niche market (for home Hifi).

Production costs are one thing, but probably more sensitive than some might think. Remember that - as always - you can spend every dollar only once.

I strongly believe that balanced connections might even let casual buyers shy away from buying a piece of kit. Going balanced only would be commercial suicide, the majority of WiiM buyers don't even know that forums line this one do exist. Personally I wouldn't mind additional TRS connectors, if they could be fitted to the projected form factor.

PS:
I also find it kind of funny that in many domestic listening environments the voltage on the line connection might be just as high, maybe higher that the voltage on the speaker wires ...

Regarding positioning, here’s what I’d do.

I’d use TRSs. I’d give up the phono in, on the grounds that anyone wanting balanced outs is probably a bit ‘techy-high-end’ to start with, and if they’re that, and already have a turntable, they’ll almost certainly have their own phono pre amp, so they can use the vanilla RCAs. WiiM’s phono pre amp almost certainly won’t be as good.

Then I’d spend some money making the ADC stage great.

Call it the Ultra Pro.

Just my opinion.

 

[dtc]

Pretty much ever CD player used 2 V signals. Other equipment typically aligned with that. It became a defacto standard in the consumer audio market. However, over time many consumer devices such as AVRs have adopted a 1V standard for their inputs. Many higher end components including many DACS still use the 2V standard. Best practice is for source devices to provide multiple output levels to match whatever equipment is down the line. By providing multiple voltage options, Wiim is just providing the flexibility to match the capabilities of the equipment it feeds. Personally, I find that the 2V output matches my equipment the best, but that will depend on your particular equipment.

 

[cooky560]

Pretty much ever CD player used 2 V signals. Other equipment typically aligned with that. It became a defacto standard in the consumer audio market. However, over time many consumer devices such as AVRs have adopted a 1V standard for their inputs. Many higher end components including many DACS still use the 2V standard. Best practice is for source devices to provide multiple output levels to match whatever equipment is down the line. By providing multiple voltage options, Wiim is just providing the flexibility to match the capabilities of the equipment it feeds. Personally, I find that the 2V output matches my equipment the best, but that will depend on your particular equipment.

2v provides far too much volume early in the dial for me.

 

[slartibartfast]

2v provides far too much volume early in the dial for me.

When I was using my Audiolab amp I inserted 10dB attenuators between my DAC and the amp just so I could use the volume control sensibly

 

[ABAstroUK]

When I was using my Audiolab amp I inserted 10dB attenuators between my DAC and the amp just so I could use the volume control sensibly

That's interesting, what Audiolab amp were you using? I've not found 2Vrms to be a problem with my 7000A through the Optical input.

 

[onlyoneme]

When I was using my Audiolab amp I inserted 10dB attenuators between my DAC and the amp just so I could use the volume control sensibly

Yeah, I use these ones

MONACOR ILA-1020 Passive level attenuators

Passive level attenuators Attenuation to be adjusted in 3 steps: 10 dB/15 dB/20 dB RCA plug to RCA inline jack Gold-plated contacts No power…

www.ltt-versand.de

for safety and flexibility.

 

[slartibartfast]

That's interesting, what Audiolab amp were you using? I've not found 2Vrms to be a problem with my 7000A through the Optical input.

8000A. Even using Replaygain on my Squeezebox the amp volume control was always in the first quarter. I didn't need to add the attenuators, I just preferred to to be able to use more of the volume control. Sometimes at low volumes with the volume control close to the end stop the channel balance would be slightly off, with the attenuators I was well away from the end stop.

 

[ABAstroUK]

8000A. Even using Replaygain on my Squeezebox the amp volume control was always in the first quarter. I didn't need to add the attenuators, I just preferred to to be able to use more of the volume control. Sometimes at low volumes with the volume control close to the end stop the channel balance would be slightly off, with the attenuators I was well away from the end stop.

OK, I see. It looks like the input sensitivity on the line in of the 8000A is a lot lower than the 7000A (100mV v 870mV) would that account for me not noticing this when using RCA input?