WiiM Amp

[musig]

As often happens, as the discussion goes we get more and more away from the initial question. IMHO WiiM Amp is a device that makes sense if it fits your needs: nice looking, easy connecting to multiple streaming services with a little amplifier suitable for ad-hoc choosen speakers. It doesn't make any sense to compare it with middle or top Hi-Fi devices. If we cut away all the rest and keep evaluating it only sound-wise we are just ignoring most of the sense of Wiim Amp.

 

[Steve Woodhouse]

As often happens, as the discussion goes we get more and more away from the initial question. IMHO WiiM Amp is a device that makes sense if it fits your needs: nice looking, easy connecting to multiple streaming services with a little amplifier suitable for ad-hoc choosen speakers. It doesn't make any sense to compare it with middle or top Hi-Fi devices. If we cut away all the rest and keep evaluating it only sound-wise we are just ignoring most of the sense of Wiim Amp.

Whilst taking your point, there’s one area I disagree, and someone else has posted this above. We’ve known for some time now that you don't always “get what you pay for.” You can spend £80 on a transparent DAC and £1,000+ on one that isn’t.

Some of the latest desktop amps (which use the same chip as the WiiM Amp) costing very low 3 figures perform measurably better than some others costing 4 figures.

If the WiiM Amp turns out to be as good as (let’s say) a WiiM Mini (currently UK £90), into an SMSL SU-1 (currently UK £80) with Fosi Audio V3 amplification (currently UK £80 - that’s a total for all three of £250), it’ll perform better than many mid-to-top hi-fi systems, as long as it’s matched with appropriate speakers.

People need to start realising that the world has moved on, and that you can get extraordinarily good hi-fi at very reasonable prices.

 

[dimangiful]

"People", even the elder have noticed that the world has changed.
But what NEVER will change is the scissor between poor, reasonable, good and extraordinary good. Of course it was never so easy to get good hifi for small money. But such small money as the amp's is too small to have good quality (and will cry for replacing very soon, I bet). "People" always made clear, that the "amp" can fit needs. But I beg your pardon, not mine. My only reason to post here is writing my opinion. And as soon as The Cult appears I write it even with more enthusiasm , sorry.

There has never in history been so much capacity in the world to produce things. Some completely useless junk, like the products in Temu. But also useful and long lasting products. I do not think that the price where Wiim Amp is being sold is impossible to make reasonable profits while producing quality. The availability of components and production capacity makes it possible today, while it might not have been 10 years ago.

If you look at well established quality brands like Yamaha, you can get good quality amps in similar price range. Especially the digital and software side of things (which is the additional feature set with Wiim Amp) are becoming less and less expensive. The thing with software is that it can be copied without any cost.

With the flood of new products pouring to markets, it is sometimes difficult to assess which is the case. I hope Wiim Amp lives to the expectations. I get the skepticism, but the argument that it's not possible at this price range is not water tight.

 

[Steve Woodhouse]

I do not think that the price where Wiim Amp is being sold is impossible to make reasonable profits while producing quality.

Well, what you, I, or anyone else thinks is utterly meaningless without evidence to support the theory.

I’ve posted examples of exceptional kit which is at cheap prices, so I’ve done my bit. I can provide links if required.

I look forward to seeing whatever evidence you offer to support your point.

By the way “It’s expensive, so it must be better!” doesn’t qualify as evidence.

Over to you.

 

[dimangiful]

Well, what you, I, or anyone else thinks is utterly meaningless without evidence to support the theory.

I’ve posted examples of exceptional kit which is at cheap prices, so I’ve done my bit. I can provide links if required.

I look forward to seeing whatever evidence you offer to support your point.

By the way “It’s expensive, so it must be better!” doesn’t qualify as evidence.

Over to you.

I think you might have misread my post. Perhaps the double negative was not a good choice of words

 

[Smartplug]

I think you might have misread my post. Perhaps the double negative was not a good choice of words

You rock, go get them tiger!

 

[es6rd6z]

Many of those self declared "Audiophiles" never touched or listened to real High Fidelity!

Perhaps a few have come to terms with the fact that, among other things, their ears can no longer hear even half of the frequency range speakers are able to produce. The idea that a double blind test is a discussion-killer rather than an objective measurement of a subjective experience is remarkable, and calling it "not realistic" for ordinary people is a bit strange when you simultaneously talk about how "real" hi-fi must be really expensive. If you can afford the 10000% markup of high-street brands, surely you can also afford to get the cheap product and ask a friend to (pretend to) swap the cables around a couple of times.

 

[harkpabst]

My third point would be that the amplifying part of the Denon is at least as good as the WiiM Amp. The fourth, an of course again my very own bias, is that all the components in the WiiM Amp are very basic, avoiding the word "cheap" (and it's Class D ).
So, as long as your amp works without technical issues stay with it and your Pro Plus. Do not expect listenable improvements from a 350 € box.

The Denon DRA-F107 has not been available as a separate product but only bundled with the DCD-F107 CD player and SC-F107 speakers. The entire set sold for roughly 650 € (list price, street price dropped below 450 € a year or so after introduction). And it was made roughly 15 years ago.

How can you know for sure the Denon is at "least (bold!) as good as the WiiM Amp", just because the WiiM amp is so "cheap"?

but it does not seem that these dali are so complicated and we can imagine that if this set denon (more complete than the wiim and a historic brand) is in place... it means that there are no problems with these speakers (no?)

It's not perfectly clear to me if you got it that the Dali speakers did not originally come with this amp. We can still conclude that there's no obvious problem for the DRA-F107 driving them, if @Giro413 has been using this combo for a while. I did not find any measurements of the Lektor 2 specifically but Dali has a reputation for making easy to drive speakers. Nominal impedance is 6 ohms and them being small and simple 2-way designs we shouldn expect them to be a non-critical load for most every amplifier.

Some pros for the Denon (e.g. more versatile remote, more legacy inputs, ...). Some pros for the WiiM Amp (e.g. more power, feature-rich streamer and decent DAC already included, 15 years younger design, somewhat basic but vastly superior subwoofer management, EQ, ...). Just for subwoofer management and EQ alone I would probably give the WiiM Amp a try.

I won't pretend I can predict the outcome but personally I'd be willing to take that risk.

Con for the WiiM Amp: DAC not exactly on par with the WiiM Pro Plus, so replacing the Denon with a different higher quality amp-only device might yield even better results (at the expense of more clutter compared to WiiM Amp). It all depends on what you want.

 

[musig]

Well, to be honest I agree that technology has made huge steps forward but in the home audio domain I am more inclined to think that not so much has actually changed since late '80, exception made for DACs and class D amps, the latter being worth considering mainly for their power efficiency. Amplification and loudspeakers have seen very little substantial evolution, that's why devices from '70 or '80 are perfectly usable and ready to provide good satisfaction.
The WiiM Amp is a good device in its price range and surely can perform better if properly coupled with loudspeakers but, sorry for repeating, it makes much more sense to judge it globally.
@Steve Woodhouse , I see your point but to make a quite good system with the components you mention you need to choose the best and probably unique combination. Spending the same money, save the DAC and the streamer but replace the Fosi with an amplifier second hand from 25-30 years ago would probably give you a much better sounding system, able to drive many different speakers, not just the "perfect" matching ones.

 

[Yoku-San]

I am curious if someone could hear a difference in a blind test between the PCB5 version of the Wiim Amp and the Fosi V3+Wiim Pro+.

 

[Steve Woodhouse]

Well, to be honest I agree that technology has made huge steps forward but in the home audio domain I am more inclined to think that not so much has actually changed since late '80, exception made for DACs and class D amps, the latter being worth considering mainly for their power efficiency. Amplification and loudspeakers have seen very little substantial evolution, that's why devices from '70 or '80 are perfectly usable and ready to provide good satisfaction.
The WiiM Amp is a good device in its price range and surely can perform better if properly coupled with loudspeakers but, sorry for repeating, it makes much more sense to judge it globally.
@Steve Woodhouse , I see your point but to make a quite good system with the components you mention you need to choose the best and probably unique combination. Spending the same money, save the DAC and the streamer but replace the Fosi with an amplifier second hand from 25-30 years ago would probably give you a much better sounding system, able to drive many different speakers, not just the "perfect" matching ones.

So, two areas here. First would be matching power ratings of speakers and amp. Yes, if you have difficult to drive speakers, and a weak amp, that’ll increase distortion. But you’d need massively tough speakers to trouble the WiiM Amp - someone at these forums has it driving a pair of Wharfedale Lintons!

Secondly, there’s the old nonsense about an amp being bright, so needing a different DAC to calm that, are a DAC having hump in the mid range, or whatever.

Here’s the frequency response of the (relatively poor) DAC in the WiiM Mini.



Here’s the same for the Fosi Audio V3:



At 4 ohms, ruler flat. At 8 ohms ruler flat to 5khz, then load dependent.

Okay, let’s spend a little more. Topping PA5, UK £250:




Ruler flat.

Interesting times. I paid £350 or so for an Audiolab 8000A back in around 1988. The BoE’s inflation converter makes that £932 today. And this £250 amp is better. The 8000A’s claimed THD+N was 0.05%, the PA5’s is 0.0005%.

But people are still trying to convince us that we need to spend tens of thousands.

 

[Steve Woodhouse]

By the way, I mentioned a system of WiiM Mini + SMSL SU-1 + Fosi Audio V3, or the WiiM Amp. How to finish that with speakers?

How about a pair of Wharfedale Diamond 12.1s. Currently UK £250. That makes the Mini set up £500, and the Amp set up £550. That will give you better than my 80s kit, which cost me £1,000 in 1988 money, £2,664 in today’s money.

We need more appreciation of the golden age we’re in, I think.

Well done WiiM!

 

[musig]

By the way, I mentioned a system of WiiM Mini + SMSL SU-1 + Fosi Audio V3, or the WiiM Amp. How to finish that with speakers?

How about a pair of Wharfedale Diamond 12.1s. Currently UK £250. That makes the Mini set up £500, and the Amp set up £550. That will give you better than my 80s kit, which cost me £1,000 in 1988 money, £2,664 in today’s money.

We need more appreciation of the golden age we’re in, I think.

Well done WiiM!

First of all thank you for the measurements, they provide a meaningful view over some objective aspects of the evaluation. Aren't we forgetting dynamics? To be able to control speakers which can be bigger than tiny bookshelves you need current and a properly built output stage. The nice power supply in your Audiolab 8000A will be your friend for many years to go

My final words to this theme, most likely many will love the word "final" here.
An offer for my near mint and boxed 1989 or 1990 Audiolab/Camtech 8000A was a few months ago 700 €.
No intention to sell this legend, quite sure it will be part of another pure vintage setup one day.
What do you think will be a resale price in more than 30 years for a WiiM "Amp"? Zero, because it will be decades ago that it ended its life on a rubbish dump. That is exactly the reason because it is definitely NOT price worthy.
You get what you pay for, even today. Like it or not. Buy cheap and you will buy twice! Or at least more often, but that is not my way. Go for it. Said in the name of Ken Ishiwata
And now we'll see what the Austria chef brings to the table. Take care @ ALL

Sure thing. Nevertheless if you pay for what you get and you get what you want, I think it is fine

 

[Steve Woodhouse]

Aren't we forgetting dynamics? To be able to control speakers which can be bigger than tiny bookshelves you need current and a properly built output stage. The nice power supply in your Audiolab 8000A will be your friend for many years to go

Regarding the power, as I’ve noted, people are already using this amp with Wharfedale Lintons. But yes, if you have very difficult, power-hungry speakers, you may need a more powerful amp. I don’t think anyone has ever disputed that.

I no longer have the 8000A, and have no regrets selling it. Loved it while I had it, though.

 

[Steve Woodhouse]

My final words to this theme, most likely many will love the word "final" here.
An offer for my near mint and boxed 1989 or 1990 Audiolab/Camtech 8000A was a few months ago 700 €.
No intention to sell this legend, quite sure it will be part of another pure vintage setup one day.
What do you think will be a resale price in more than 30 years for a WiiM "Amp"? Zero, because it will be decades ago that it ended its life on a rubbish dump. That is exactly the reason because it is definitely NOT price worthy.
You get what you pay for, even today. Like it or not. Buy cheap and you will buy twice! Or at least more often, but that is not my way. Go for it. Said in the name of Ken Ishiwata
And now we'll see what the Austria chef brings to the table. Take care @ ALL

I have never, and cannot imagine ever making a hi-fi purchasing decision based on resale value.

I suspect the WiiM Amp’s greatest advantage is also its greatest disadvantage. It’s a superb one-box solution. But it very locked in, with limited facility to upgrade, and if anything breaks down (most likely the amplification stage), you’re stuck.

The same can be said of pretty much any one box solution.

Whether anyone will still be using a current WiiM Amp in 2, 5, 10, 20, 40 years time might be something which some might want to discuss. But at £299, I’m not sure it’s an avenue I’d go down.

But still having an Audiolab 8000A with THD+N of 0.05%, when you can buy a £100 amp today with THD+N of 0.0005% is a spurious advantage to offer into the argument at best.

By the way, going back in time I suppose an older version of the WiiM Amp might be the Denon UD-M31. I bought mine around 30 years ago…it’s still going strong.

 

[musig]

Honestly I think that the THD+N doesn't define an amplifier and tells you almost nothing about how it will sound, nonetheless it is a parameter to be taken into consideration (especially in case of weird values). I appreciate the work done on measurement based tests because objective data are provided and these can be a very useful at choice time. Nowadays it is more and more difficult to find a good reseller with a listening room where to experiment and test equipment (at least in Italy) so, at least, you have some well made measurements and metrics that can be very helpful.

 

[Yoku-San]

Regarding the power, as I’ve noted, people are already using this amp with Wharfedale Lintons

I have a pair of Lintons, they have a quite high sensitivity and are therefore easier to drive than speakers like e.g. KEF LS50.

 

[harkpabst]

But yes, if you have very difficult, power-hungry speakers, you may need a more powerful amp. I don’t think anyone has ever disputed that.

Or just add a sub and enjoy all the substantial benefits of the WiiM providing proper high-pass filtering of the mains, including vastly lowering power demands on the amplifier section. The difference can be huge, especially with relatively small speakers.

Honestly I think that the THD+N doesn't define an amplifier and tells you almost nothing about how it will sound, nonetheless it is a parameter to be taken into consideration (especially in case of weird values). I appreciate the work done on measurement based tests because objective data are provided and these can be a very useful at choice time. Nowadays it is more and more difficult to find a good reseller with a listening room where to experiment and test equipment (at least in Italy) so, at least, you have some well made measurements and metrics that can be very helpful.

Your point is valid. Engineers have always been measuring what they could measure easily. Things have improved over time and (being an engineer) I do appreciate that nowadays we do not simply measure THD+N and that's it. Correlation between measurements and perceived quality is still a challenge, but not as mysterious as it used to be. In the end it's still about what somebody likes or not, but one individual simply liking (or disliking) a certain kind of music reproduction is not helpful for anybody.

And a final note (final as in the sense of Achim's final) on hard to drive speakers: The WiiM Amp can easily drive a pair of KEF LS 50 to insane levels, in a 20 m² room at least.

 

[Atlas B170]

My final words to this theme, most likely many will love the word "final" here.
An offer for my near mint and boxed 1989 or 1990 Audiolab/Camtech 8000A was a few months ago 700 €.
No intention to sell this legend, quite sure it will be part of another pure vintage setup one day.
What do you think will be a resale price in more than 30 years for a WiiM "Amp"? Zero, because it will be decades ago that it ended its life on a rubbish dump. That is exactly the reason because it is definitely NOT price worthy.
You get what you pay for, even today. Like it or not. Buy cheap and you will buy twice! Or at least more often, but that is not my way. Go for it. Said in the name of Ken Ishiwata
And now we'll see what the Austria chef brings to the table. Take care @ ALL

I guess there are still people around that believe "If it costs more, it must be better," even in this day and age...

This hobby has historically been rife with slick marketing, gatekeeping, and nonsensical subjective descriptors from both manufacturers and industry media. The focus on measurement-driven engineering and delivering highly functional and affordable components from the likes of WiiM, Fosi, Topping, SMSL, etc. is the future of this hobby. Sure, there will always be people willing to pay an excessive premium if they believe they're getting the absolute best (and I assure you that the salesmen know that better than anyone), but the actual innovation is being done at the level that you ironically seem to think is inferior.

 

[Steve Woodhouse]

Final final final..
My posts are not about better or worse. It should only make clear that my approach is different and I do not want to be patronized in any way!
I have my own guidelines to decide if a device for me is worth the price. No nonsense at all. I've run successful a company for decades and believe me, throwing money out of the window is still a horror for me and calculating prices was always part of it.
My stereo is as I posted far away from esoteric and overpriced high-end, may be it is mid-end. And I have to confess that the digital part is the less important. So, may be my judgement about this cheap chinois....devices may sound a little harsh. But putting a hand on my (still) budget level amplifier is for me a better feeling than touching those ridiculous fast "developing" and every two months "improving" devices.
So, I grant me this little luxury as part of a reward for performance. My only concern is to be mocked for that.

Added: If you are interested may have a look in my profile under "About" what my actual setup is. Name me one not reasonable item.

De gustibus non est disputandum.

But when you come to a public forum and tell people that they should or shouldn’t be buying products x, y or z, based on how you feel, and criticise others for using and suggesting scientifically accurate ways of judging kit, then it’s yourself who’s being inconsistent.

When we hear our kit, we hear frequency response, distortion (or jack of it), and noise (or a lack of it). Measuring those, and noting which measures best is a perfectly reasonable way - some might say the only valid way - to judge standards.

If you were to undergo a medical treatment, or take a drug, I’m sure you’d want to base any choice you’d make on scientific measurements of the validity of that treatment. And if someone were to say “The deaths per thousand figures are better, but I prefer the other one”, you’d run a mile.