Wiim Ultra with SVS Micro 3000

[Lagavulin]

I’d try maxing the volume at the sub - I saw that recommended for mine in a few different places - and control the bass level from the WiiM app. And I’d try pushing the crossover up to 80. Remember to set your sub gain in the WiiM app back to 0 before the next assessment, and don’t be surprised if you have to lower it further after a listen. The Tannoys may be rated down to 40 hz, but they’re working hard down there. The more lower frequencies you can push off to the sub (within reason) is that much extra work your mains don’t have to do, and the better they’ll sound handling mids and highs. 80 hz is well under your sub’s high end (240 hz, I believe), so that should be close to the sweet spot between sub and mains.

Just for reference, my Paradigms have a low frequency response of 53 hz. I started with the crossover at 80, then tried 120. While there wasn’t any discernible difference in the bass, the Paradigms seem a little happier being just that tad further away from their low end, so there at 120 it stays.

Thanks for this.
So am I right to say that I should set the SVS 3000 Micro volume back to 0dB instead of -30db and run the Sub and Main sync again?
Then in the WiiM app set the crossover at 80Hz and sub gain back to 0db and run RoomFit again?
I've read conflicting suggestions on leaving both main and sub to off for the high pass filter. However someone on here with the SVS 3000 Micro and Sonus Faber's was leaving the mains bass output set at off ... but conversely turning full frequency on for the sub and using the subs low pass filter. Having a pair of SF Guarneri Memento's myself I would at some point want to try those with the sub as well.
What do you think? Have I got what you were saying right or not?
Thanks anyway for your help

 

[slartibartfast]

Thanks for this.
So am I right to say that I should set the SVS 3000 Micro volume back to 0dB instead of -30db and run the Sub and Main sync again?
Then in the WiiM app set the crossover at 80Hz and sub gain back to 0db and run RoomFit again?
I've read conflicting suggestions on leaving both main and sub to off for the high pass filter. However someone on here with the SVS 3000 Micro and Sonus Faber's was leaving the mains bass output set at off ... but conversely turning full frequency on for the sub and using the subs low pass filter. Having a pair of SF Guarneri Memento's myself I would at some point want to try those with the sub as well.
What do you think? Have I got what you were saying right or not?
Thanks anyway for your help

Maybe try setting the sub volume to -20 and -10 before jumping to 0dB. Run Roomfit at each volume and check the response.

 

[Lagavulin]

Maybe try setting the sub volume to -20 and -10 before jumping to 0dB. Run Roomfit at each volume and check the response.

Is that setting the volume of the SVS at -20dB and then again at -10dB in syncing sub and main? and then run RoomFit for each of those in turn to see which gives the best result?

 

[slartibartfast]

Is that setting the volume of the SVS at -20dB and then again at -10dB in syncing sub and main? and then run RoomFit for each of those in turn to see which gives the best result?

Yes and if the frequency response looks OK at -20 or -10 then stop there. Take screenshots of the response at each level and post them here.

 

[Lagavulin]

Yes and if the frequency response looks OK at -20 or -10 then stop there. Take screenshots of the response at each level and post them here.

Thanks for the advise ...
So I've carried out measurements again following this advice and that given by @dominikz on settings for the WiiM Ultra.
So as to try and keep it tidy I will post results for both at -20dB and -10dB volume level set on the SVS Micro 3000 separately. RoomFit was run after syncing the Sub and the Mains for each of those settings. The results were then evaluated for each and corrected by RoomFit.
I'm not qualified in the least to analyse them ... but again would be more than grateful for comments. I'm now going to listen to both sets of settings on the WiiM Ultra and the SVS to see if there's a notable difference or preference.

 

[Lagavulin]

These are the results when the Tannoys were synced at -20dB on the SVS Micro 3000:
Note: The measured delay was the same as when synced at -10dB.

 

[Lagavulin]

These are the results when the Tannoys were synced at -10dB on the SVS Micro 3000:
Note: The measured delay was the same as when synced at -20dB.

 

[dominikz]

These are the results when the Tannoys were synced at -10dB on the SVS Micro 3000:
Note: The measured delay was the same as when synced at -20dB.
View attachment 29355View attachment 29356View attachment 29357View attachment 29358View attachment 29359View attachment 29360View attachment 29361View attachment 29362View attachment 29363View attachment 29364View attachment 29365View attachment 29366View attachment 29367View attachment 29368

This actually looks pretty good after RoomFit, well done!
How does it sound to you?

 

[Lagavulin]

This actually looks pretty good after RoomFit, well done!
How does it sound to you?

Still evaluating to be honest ... I'm listening to various artists and music genre with the Ultra set at the -10dB on RoomFit. I think that if anything there was possibly too little bass from the SVS so I've changed the volume level to 0dB and dialed the Ultras bass level control to -3dB to take it down a notch.
Listening to it now with these settings and it sounds rather good
I think I'm going to play around with it like this switching back and forth to get a firm preference.
I think I will then at some point keep the same settings on the Ultra but sync with the SVS at 0dB and repeat the process of comparing till I feel that the sound at least to my ears the best I've achieved
Thanks for your assistance

 

[dominikz]

Still evaluating to be honest ... I'm listening to various artists and music genre with the Ultra set at the -10dB on RoomFit. I think that if anything there was possibly too little bass from the SVS so I've changed the volume level to 0dB and dialed the Ultras bass level control to -3dB to take it down a notch.
Listening to it now with these settings and it sounds rather good
I think I'm going to play around with it like this switching back and forth to get a firm preference.
I think I will then at some point keep the same settings on the Ultra but sync with the SVS at 0dB and repeat the process of comparing till I feel that the sound at least to my ears the best I've achieved
Thanks for your assistance

No problem!

My suggestion would be not to touch subwoofer settings at all once you get a good calibration result with RoomFit.
This is because changing bass management / subwoofer settings changes the shape of the response, so RoomFit correction will no longer be as accurate - especially around the crossover.

Instead I'd suggest to use separate EQ (not RoomFit) to add or reduce bass to your liking.
You can fo this with just a single "stereo" PEQ band configured as "LS" type, with frequency 150Hz, Q=0,7, and gain set to your preference.

Here's an example with +3dB bass boost:

 

[Lagavulin]

No problem!
My suggestion would be not to touch subwoofer settings at all once you get a good calibration result with RoomFit.
Instead use EQ to add or reduce bass to your liking.
I'd suggest just a single "stereo" PEQ band configured as "LS" type, with frequency 150Hz, Q=0,7, and gain set to your preference.

So ....
Currently I am listening to familiar tracks with these settings:
SVS Micro 3000 volume set at 0dB
WiiM Ultra with RoomFit on (SVS -10dB)
WiiM Ultra Sub Output Level set at -5dB
I have added EQ in the form of "Acoustic" to see how that affects the music.
However you suggest .... "I'd suggest just a single "stereo" PEQ band configured as "LS" type, with frequency 150Hz, Q=0,7, and gain set to your preference".

If only I knew how to do that

 

[dominikz]

However you suggest .... "I'd suggest just a single "stereo" PEQ band configured as "LS" type, with frequency 150Hz, Q=0,7, and gain set to your preference".

If only I knew how to do that

See the post above, I just added a screenshot to try and illustrate. Hope it helps!

 

[Eddie Spaghetti]

I love it when a plan comes together. It’s quite a journey, isn’t it?!

 

[Lagavulin]

I love it when a plan comes together. It’s quite a journey, isn’t it?!

You're absolutely right ... it's a big learning curve to integrate a subwoofer with your main speakers. Add to this that the space isn't ideal as it's a bedroom system. I chose the SVS due to its small form factor and good reviews. The WiiM Ultra is doing all the DSP ... connected via optical is a WiiM Vibelink ... powering a pair of Tannoy Eaton's. Had WiiM's own subwoofer been available in gloss white I might well have bought one instead (or two for the price of the SVS).
The WiiM's are not in the photo as they are off to the side near my listening position. Legacy MF Tri-Vista's power the SF Guarneri
Apologies for the untidy cabling as I'm still experimenting on positions.

 

[Eddie Spaghetti]

You're absolutely right ... it's a big learning curve to integrate a subwoofer with your main speakers. Add to this that the space isn't ideal as it's a bedroom system. I chose the SVS due to its small form factor and good reviews. The WiiM Ultra is doing all the DSP ... connected via optical is a WiiM Vibelink ... powering a pair of Tannoy Eaton's. Had WiiM's own subwoofer been available in gloss white I might well have bought one instead (or two for the price of the SVS).
The WiiM's are not in the photo as they are off to the side near my listening position. Legacy MF Tri-Vista's power the SF Guarneri
Apologies for the untidy cabling as I'm still experimenting on positions.

View attachment 29374View attachment 29373

Not everybody has the means or the space to custom build the perfect dedicated listening room - if there even is such a thing. So we do the best we can with what we have at our disposal. The most important thing over the dials and gauges and charts is what your own ears tell you. If they tell you it sounds good, that’s really all that matters. Btw, that’s quite a setup for a bedroom. My bedroom setup would be a Bose Soundlink Flex.

 

[harkpabst]

I agree that the measurements do look pretty good now, but must admit that I still have that one nagging doubt ...

As is clearly visible, the smooth and linear bass response has been achieved by massively boosting the subwoofer level prior to RoomFit. RoomFit lowers the level over a brange around 40 Hz and by up to 20 dB. There's nothing wrong with this fact alone, but there is one obvious drawback: RoomFit seems to be using up all of its 10 PEQ bands below ~120 Hz, so there's nothing left for the frequency range between 120 Hz and 300 Hz. One reason (and probably the main one) is that each individual PEQ filter is limited to a level between +12 dB and -12 dB.

My guess is that polarity (called phase everywhere) and/or the latency between sub and mains are still not set perfectly. The output from the subwoofer and the main speakers does add up constructively around the crossover frequency, otherwise pushing the sub level would not have helped at all, so it's not completely off. But I fear that the phase difference is still not exactly zero.

If - by playing around with the phase setting and the latency in the WiiM Home App you could get a higher SPL around the crossover frequency you would get along with less correction around 40 Hz and PEQ bands could be freed up for the range above 120 Hz. @dominikz had suggested trying both positions of.the phase switch much earlier on.

Please note that always ever one latenc setting is active, either sub to mains or mains to sub. There are two different tabs, but as soon as you enter a non-zero value on one of them, the value on the other tab is automatically reset to zero. Having both enabled at the same time wouldn't make any sense.

 

[slartibartfast]

Not everybody has the means or the space to custom build the perfect dedicated listening room - if there even is such a thing. So we do the best we can with what we have at our disposal. The most important thing over the dials and gauges and charts is what your own ears tell you. If they tell you it sounds good, that’s really all that matters. Btw, that’s quite a setup for a bedroom. My bedroom setup would be a Bose Soundlink Flex.

Is placing the subs on stands away from the wall the best place for them? I thought placing them on the floor near at least one wall was preferred.

 

[Lagavulin]

I agree that the measurements do look pretty good now, but must admit that I still have that one nagging doubt ...

As is clearly visible, the smooth and linear bass response has been achieved by massively boosting the subwoofer level prior to RoomFit. RoomFit lowers the level at abroad range around 40 Hz and by up to 20 dB. There's nothing wrong with this fact alone, but there is one obvious drawback: RoomFit seems.to be using up all of its 10 PEQ bands below ~120 Hz, so there's nothing left for the frequency range between 120 Hz and 300 Hz. One reason (and probably the main one) is that each individual PEQ filter is limited to a level between +12 dB and -12 dB.

My guess is that polarity (called phase everywhere) and/or the latency between sub and mains are still not set perfectly. The output from the subwoofer and the main speakers does add up constructively around the crossover frequency, otherwise pushing the sub level would not have helped at all. But I fear that the phase difference is still not exactly zero.

If - by playing around with the phase setting and the latency in the WiiM Home App you could get a higher SPL around the crossover frequency you would get along with less correction around 40 Hz and PEQ bands could be freed up for the range above 120 Hz. @dominikz had suggested trying both positions of.the phase switch much earlier on.

Please note that always ever one latenc setting is active, either sub to mains or mains to sub. There are two different tabs, but as soon as you enter a non-zero value on one of them, the value on the other tab is automatically reset to zero. Having both enabled at the same time wouldn't make any sense.

You raise some intriguing observations that I am trying to absorb ... I do get the gist of what you are saying but you are for more knowledgeable in interpreting results than I am
As far as latency is concerned without the benefit of a separate mic, or Rew, or the knowledge how to use those tools either ... I opted for placing the Ultra at the listening position before running the sub and mains sync. At both -20dB and -10dB volume level set on the SVS I got the same result - a difference of 9ms. Phase on the Ultra was set at 0 for both synchronizations. I'm not experienced enough (at least not yet) to know how to ensure that those results were entirely accurate .... I'm depending on the ability of WiiM's software engineers to help me out here.
Looking at the actual L and R frequency responses at both -20dB and -10dB together with the Ultras DSP final evaluation correction it struck me that the -10dB results were better?
I did some limited listening between the -20dB and -10dB RoomFit settings with the same volume levels set on the SVS sub ... before concentrating on the -10dB ones.
My observations were anything but scientific, partly because much of the music I listen to doesn't really have much deep bass, but when a track was played that I knew had a decent amount of low level bass, I felt there was not as much as I was expecting. Certainly not that much more than the Tannoys were able to provide on their own - before removing anything below 80Hz from their duties and handing it over to the SVS ...
Hence I decided to trial setting the SVS to 0dB, leaving the RoomFit correction at -10dB results, and adjusting bass level on the Ultra (so as not to overpower the room) at -5dB.
Now of course this could be totally wrong and self defeating ... but there was definitely much more heft to the bass now. Was it great bass? I'm not convinced ... there was definitely more thud thud thud. But that's not what I'm looking for ... I'm after timber, delay, reverb and all the things that give realism to the twanging of a bass guitar or the richness of an oboe or the decay on a piano key ... not much to ask for I know
I decided to add a subwoofer to see if there was a fullness of sound that others talk about by adding a sub or two that perhaps I was missing out on? Was I eaking out the last bit of experience from my system? I need to find out ...
And just to be clear I really enjoy the Tannoys and the Sonus Faber's ... even without a sub ... I'm just like everybody else I'm just hoping to find another level of emotional experience from the music
I need to let your observations and suggestions wash over me and see if I can make changes so that not all the Ultras PEQ's are consumed so low down below 40Hz at the expense of the range above to 300Hz ... I did further experiment by adding one of the Ultras preset EQ's (Acoustic) to see what affects that would have on top of everything else and it was ok, maybe a bit better than ok , but there are many presets to try and that takes time and experiment.
After all these are early steps for me and there are plenty of days ahead (I hope!).
Cheers,
George

 

[Lagavulin]

Is placing the subs on stands away from the wall the best place for them? I thought placing them on the floor near at least one wall was preferred.

I'm not sure if I understand? The Sub is on a granite plinth towards the corner of the room in my setup.
Am I missing something? Only the Tannoy Eaton's are on stands. Apologies if I've misunderstood you.

 

[dominikz]

My observations were anything but scientific, partly because much of the music I listen to doesn't really have much deep bass, but when a track was played that I knew had a decent amount of low level bass, I felt there was not as much as I was expecting. Certainly not that much more than the Tannoys were able to provide on their own - before removing anything below 80Hz from their duties and handing it over to the SVS ...

In general, adding a sub isn't intended to significantly change the tonal balance compared to not having a sub - one should just aim to get a smoother bass response overall. Another benefit is the ability to play content in the lowest octave or two - if it is in the recording in the first place.
So the intention of a sub isn't really to get more bass / warmer balance, but rather to get better quality bass and deeper extension. The subwoofer shouldn't draw attention to itself, if integration is done well.

In that sense it might be a good thing that with -10dB setting you didn't feel there's much of a difference vs not having a sub!
However, what I find usually is that when you switch directly between sub enabled vs disabled there's actually more of a difference than it may seem initially when listening without direct (i.e. gapless) switching.

Direct switching is not entirely trivial to configure with WiiM current implementation, unfortunately - as you'd need different RoomFit calibrations for sub enabled vs disabled, and a way to associate them with presets. At the moment RoomFit profiles cannot be added to presets directly (sadly), so you'd need to use EQ instead of RoomFit for room correction to facilitate this test. This would require some manual work to copy RoomFit profile filter settings to EQ, and then associate these EQs and appropriate subwoofer on/off setting with two different presets. Then you could directly change between subwoofer enabled and disabled variants with a press of the appropriate preset button on the remote.

Hence I decided to trial setting the SVS to 0dB, leaving the RoomFit correction at -10dB results, and adjusting bass level on the Ultra (so as not to overpower the room) at -5dB.
Now of course this could be totally wrong and self defeating ... but there was definitely much more heft to the bass now. Was it great bass? I'm not convinced ... there was definitely more thud thud thud. But that's not what I'm looking for ...

I'm not really surprised that this didn't work well. As I mentioned before, increasing subwoofer level will break subwoofer integration as well as RoomFit calibration and may result in new resonances or nulls in the response. Also, you configured quite a significant bass boost (about +5dB in total, if I understood you well).
This is why I suggested to use EQ to control the total level of bass after you get a nice, smooth result with RoomFit, rather than adjusting subwoofer gain.

Also, I agree with the comments made by @harkpabst in post #56, though I didn't want to bring those up until you had some time to listen and come back with more impressions.

Good luck and enjoy the experimentation!