UPnP Cast?

[mountainview]

I am very interested in the upcoming WiiM Pro to replace my current setup. I was wondering if someone can share some first hand experience regarding the UPnP implementation. My idea is to use the WiiM Pro as a dedicated streamer that would cast audio (Qobuz HiRes, own library) via UPnP to my Devialet Phantom Speakers. Right now I use a Mac mini server with LMS or Audirvana plus Audirvana Remote or iPeng on my iPad/iPhone. So the Devialet speakers are wirelessly connected UPnP renderers/audio devices which need a separate app (hopefully WiiM?) to manage the stream. Thank you!

 

[mountainview]

I am very interested in the upcoming WiiM Pro to replace my current setup. I was wondering if someone can share some first hand experience regarding the UPnP implementation. My idea is to use the WiiM Pro as a dedicated streamer that would cast audio (Qobuz HiRes, own library) via UPnP to my Devialet Phantom Speakers. Right now I use a Mac mini server with LMS or Audirvana plus Audirvana Remote or iPeng on my iPad/iPhone. So the Devialet speakers are wirelessly connected UPnP renderers/audio devices which need a separate app (hopefully WiiM?) to manage the stream. Thank you!

Just to clarify. I was told by tech support that it should work, but I have never seen a video or post about it. In the photos/videos the app only seems to show the physical outputs as well as Bluetooth, but UPnP? It is also listed on the Future Updates called "Cast to Sonos and other 3rd DLNA devices", but other posts do include DNLA features. So is there maybe a rough timeframe if it is not implemented yet?

 

[Brantome]

I’m a bit confused as to what you are aiming to do - in my mind, the WiiM devices are currently UPNP renderers themselves, not upnp servers, while the WiiM app is a UPNP control point (if I have the terminology correct).

Perhaps in the future that might change such that they support more than their current physical output connections, but if WiiM haven’t put an actual timeframe on that as they have on other future features, who knows how long it’ll be before it’ll support that.

 

[mountainview]

I’m a bit confused as to what you are aiming to do - in my mind, the WiiM devices are currently UPNP renderers themselves, not upnp servers, while the WiiM app is a UPNP control point (if I have the terminology correct).

Perhaps in the future that might change such that they support more than their current physical output connections, but if WiiM haven’t put an actual timeframe on that as they have on other future features, who knows how long it’ll be before it’ll support that.

That is what I am trying to figure out. Tech support told me it is already possible, but all the material I have seen/read is in a setup where WiiM is a renderer which physically connects. However, I think that WiiM is very well suited to also cast UPnP as a control point (via WiiM App) plus UPnP streaming server which would distribute Bitperfect HiRes to UPnP devices (renderers). It could in fact complement/replace a LMS system or Roon or Bluesound. My speakers for example would do also AirPlay and Bluetooth, but non of these protocols is HiRes. The next (better) option for my setup is an Innuos Zen mini which is above USD/EUR 1K.

 

[onlyoneme]

That is what I am trying to figure out. Tech support told me it is already possible, but all the material I have seen/read is in a setup where WiiM is a renderer which physically connects. However, I think that WiiM is very well suited to also cast UPnP as a control point (via WiiM App) plus UPnP streaming server which would distribute Bitperfect HiRes to UPnP devices (renderers). It could in fact complement/replace a LMS system or Roon or Bluesound. My speakers for example would do also AirPlay and Bluetooth, but non of these protocols is HiRes. The next (better) option for my setup is an Innuos Zen mini which is above USD/EUR 1K.

What's the point of WiiM being a control point when you need an app to control it which is a control point in fact? What would you expect from WiiM device in that matter?

What I can imagine is the WiiM as a kind of collector which provides some details about the activity around to the app with tunneling scenario. Or distributing songs to the renderers based on the playlist stored on the WiiM and maintained by the app, but honestly I think it's a kind of power waste.

 

[mountainview]

What's the point of WiiM being a control point when you need an app to control it which is a control point in fact? What would you expect from WiiM device in that matter?

What I can imagine is the WiiM as a kind of collector which provides some details about the activity around to the app with tunneling scenario. Or distributing songs to the renderers based on the playlist stored on the WiiM and maintained by the app, but honestly I think it's a kind of power waste.

Not sure if I explained myself well. The WiiM would become the central hub for all audio. It has analog/digital inputs, can access servers and audio services and distribute, even multiroom to other physically connected devices or via Network/Wireless to to other WiiM, Chromecast, AirPlay, Bluetooth, UPnP devices. The whole system is controlled by the WiiM app. What is not to like?

 

[Notenoughbikes]

This would be awesome! I’d love to have wiim be able to playback through my naim nac272, alongside a directly connected amp and Sonos in a 3rd room.

 

[d6jg]

In UPnP terms the WiiM Mini or Pro is a Renderer, the WiiM App is a Control Point but you also need a Server - the server can be cloud based with its own playback protocol (Spotify, Amazon, Apple etc) or local (any UPnP server) but the WiiM itself is not capable (hardware wise) of fulfilling that function IMHO.

There are other non UPnP systems out there that get close to what you are suggesting - LMS which the OP already uses, Roon, Plex etc - but each one has some degree of compromise attached to it. I will stick my neck out and say that there is no UPnP server out there that gets anywhere near to these though.

I use LMS which (in my opinion) is currently the closest to doing what the OP wants when coupled with the Material skin plugin but some of the compromises there are

1. The WiiM isn't 100% compatible as it stands. Can be made to work with UPnP Bridge plugin but if you want gapless you don't get Metadata to the App and you are limited to 16/44.1. This is until WiiM implement Squeezelite natively on the Mini/Pro when the latter will go to 24/192.

2. Aux or Optical In then streamed out. Using a number of methods this can already be achieved in LMS but there is lag. Quite a bit of lag. I can't see how this can be achieved by WiiM without similar levels of lag - 2-5 seconds.

3. LMS has the capacity to play nicely with Spotify, Deezer, Tidal, Qobuz and some others but it cannot deal with closed API's from Apple or Amazon. WiiM has an advantage here.

Material skin is the equivalent to the WiiM App and as its is an HTML5 skin to the serverf can be run on any device that has HTML5 browser. If you add some additional plugins into LMS you get Roon / Plex like access to Bio's, Reviews etc within Material for zero cost.

 

[DryTortuga]

Just echoing what d6jg says… except you can send 24/192 files to the Wiim using the UPNP plugin - you have to edit the general or specific player settings in the plugin setup for that to happen. Otherwise the plugin defaults to 48Khz max. I want emphasize that native Squeezelite support would be much more preferable and awesome. The LMS server with the Material plugin is a great and free alternative to Roon. And to OP, you need a server and the Wiim is not cut out for it. I was a Logitech squeezebox dealer (sold a lot of Transporters in the day) and was one of the first Sonos dealers in the US. The Wiim hooked up to an outboard DAC is the best thing for the price I’ve seen in years.

 

[d6jg]

Just echoing what d6jg says… except you can send 24/192 files to the Wiim using the UPNP plugin - you have to edit the general or specific player settings in the plugin setup for that to happen. Otherwise the plugin defaults to 48Khz max. I want emphasize that native Squeezelite support would be much more preferable and awesome. The LMS server with the Material plugin is a great and free alternative to Roon. And to OP, you need a server and the Wiim is not cut out for it. I was a Logitech squeezebox dealer (sold a lot of Transporters in the day) and was one of the first Sonos dealers in the US. The Wiim hooked up to an outboard DAC is the best thing for the price I’ve seen in years.

Have you managed to get gapless without Flow mode? Yes you could upsample to 24/192 but that only really benefits Qobuz in Flow mode unless you have local HD content but I don’t.
I’m told the underlying OS is some flavour of Linux so Squeezelite should be possible. I really hope it’s implemented as the LMS world is crying out for pre built players.
I agree the WiiM is great value with outboard DAC. It’s better than Digi32 as it has good 5Ghz WiFi. The Digi32 is IIRC 2.4Ghz only and struggled with Qobuz 24/192.

 

[onlyoneme]

Have you managed to get gapless without Flow mode? Yes you could upsample to 24/192 but that only really benefits Qobuz in Flow mode unless you have local HD content but I don’t.
I’m told the underlying OS is some flavour of Linux so Squeezelite should be possible. I really hope it’s implemented as the LMS world is crying out for pre built players.
I agree the WiiM is great value with outboard DAC. It’s better than Digi32 as it has good 5Ghz WiFi. The Digi32 is IIRC 2.4Ghz only and struggled with Qobuz 24/192.

Mini is gapless without flow mode since SetNextAVTransportURI has been implemented. It works correctly with UPnP bridge.

 

[d6jg]

Mini is gapless without flow mode since SetNextAVTransportURI has been implemented. It works correctly with UPnP bridge.

Which version of UPnP Bridge? Can you post extract from xml file?

 

[DryTortuga]

I did not change any player(general) settings except bumped up the max bitrate to 192 from the 48 default. The default gapless and 24 bit type settings worked fine. Tested with local native 24/192 files and 24/192 QOBUZ. Local files were a gapless concert disc. I bought three more minis after I found it worked and turned my pi’s into arcade cabinets

 

[onlyoneme]

Which version of UPnP Bridge? Can you post extract from xml file?

There was an update recently, I haven't tested it yet but I had no issues (except a case with very short audio files) with previous UPnP builds. My config is very generic with
<accept_nexturi>1</accept_nexturi>
<mode>thru</mode>

 

[d6jg]

I’ve not managed to play DSOTM properly except with Flow mode using any of the recent Bridge updates or indeed the long standing version from a week or so ago. That said DSOTM has relatively short tracks.
I shall re-test tomorrow

 

[onlyoneme]

I've meant really short few seconds files. They are not handled correctly.

 

[d6jg]

Success.

Confirmed - WiiM Mini with latest dev UPnP/DLNA bridge 2.1.1 for LMS allows gapless without any transcoding or flow involved i.e. out of the box settings. The bridge also passes metadata and cover art successfully.

I'm not sure where it got broken then fixed as there have been many changes to the plugin in last week or so but I have played some 24/96 stuff from Qobuz, some Radio Paradise (FLAC) and listened to a local 16/44.1 rip of DSOTM all via my LMS server and all work.

I'd say that the WiiM Mini is 98% compatible with LMS out of the box in this pass through mode - it still misses replaygain and crossfade so I can't say its 100%. My testing is via Optical out to an external DAC. I still can't say that the onboard DAC is anything other than OK. However, as this is so close to being a perfect LMS player when used with an external DAC I'd encourage anyone who currently uses their WiiM with a UPnP server to try it with LMS. The LMS ecosystem is so much better than any UPnP server I have ever tried (and there have been many) and there is a very active community forum at https://forums.slimdevices.com/ where lots of help is at hand.

Squeezelite on board would make it a game changer for the LMS community (who probably outnumber the Roon community) so come on WiiM get it done!

 

[bcretty]

I'm currently using a Raspberry Pi with Squeezelite running LMS as a server to stream to multiple Mini's via UPnP bridge with no problems. I highly recommend using Squeezer on Android as well as Band's Campout to stream all of your liked music within Bandamp for free. I don's know of any other service that offers Bandcamp streaming. I also use LMS to stream SomaFm as well if anyone is interested. If LMS works fine with the Mini via UPnP what is the point of native LMS support on the Mini?

 

[DryTortuga]

Multi-room support.

 

[bcretty]

Please explain. LMS already does multi room. I control it via Squeezer on my Android. I must be missing something. My apologies.